For the lovers, how much is too much?

I love TLJ very much, but I'm not sure what you're getting at with this complex question. I can say that for me nothing in TLJ is "too much" (except stuff like the stable boy using the Force, but that's different). There's obviously a point where stuff gets ridiculous, though, and we've seen that in the EU. You've mentioned some of it. But its hard to say how much exactly is too much. It depends.

 

There is just one thing that would make me flip tables and get mad at Star Wars creators and it has nothing to do with Force powers, technology and so on. It's about balance of the Force. So, the thing that would make me really, really disappointed is if someone decides that in order for the balance to be achieved you need Dark Side of the Force. No. Dark Side is evil. It is corruptive. It turns a man into its slave. You must be aware of its existence and you must fight its influence but you must never embrace it.

 

First, if you can suspend your disbelief that humans are thriving in space, people moving things without using their hands, unrealistic jumping, etc, etc...then it's about execution.

 

It's different, because I don't have a problem with him being able to use a simple Force trick lore-wise, but I don't like how it makes the message of the scene literal and shrinks the universe a little bit in this particular instance. So my gripe is more on the filmmaking side.

Yup, that's a good one. I think it's a popular misconception that balance = the light and the dark coexisting, while the dark side is clearly what disturbs the balance. I guess they could say the Jedi Order's interpretation of it is wrong, but gosh, that basically ruins Jedi.

 

Of course, there are some points where I would prefer that they don't get access into the SW-world: Teleportation, e. g., is for me something a "Star Trek thing", I don't really want to see in other universes too much. Also, I have a problem with time travel in the SW universe (yeah, I've heard, that in 'Rebels', they have used it, and I don't like the idea).

But: There is not only the What, but also the How. When they find a way to combine any idea with the rest of the saga in a way that 'fits'... then it fits. And then it is okay, good or even great.

 

It's a bit too much that Rebels makes it look like Luke saved the galaxy just because Ezra was unavailble. I'm half joking, but I don't like how they sometimes flirt with very powerful characters and arcs that seem to undermine the Saga. It has always been kind of iffy for me to see Kanan and Ezra run around with lightsabers and the Force in the time notorious for the lack of Jedi. Sure, it technically makes sense, but I'm talking about how they change our perception of certain stuff. It may cheapen a thing or two. Is it definitely too much and shouldn't exist? No, because it technically works and doesn't break the canon. But it's too much enough for some people to feel put off.

So I think "too much" is not just a matter of how ridiculous we can get, but also what theoretically valid ideas we choose to be a part of the narrative.

I also don't like forced retcons. I used to joke that Han probably met the Ghost crew at a space gas station and they convinced him to go back and help with the Death Star assault. Well, that would be too much!

 

Basically any attempt to reanimate a major character. Whether that be through:

Time travel. I was okay with what happened in Rebels, mainly because they didn't do TOO much and there are things an animated children's show can get away with that a live action movie can't. Plus, there's still the debate over whether what they did was actually time travel. But I don't even want to see the concept flirted with in 9 or beyond that on the silver screen.

Cloning. Obviously cloning exists in the SW universe but I really don't want to see it used to try and bring back a major character.

Reincarnation. I'm the most lenient with this one because I do think there's some intrigue in having Rey or Kylo be the reincarnation of a past character but I think ultimately it would go against things that we know about the Force and it would open up too many questions.

There are probably (obviously) more things they could do that I would deem "too far" but this is what popped in my head first because for me, it would definitely be an automatic turnoff.

 

Too much would be turning force users into overpowered superheroes.

 

Bingo. It's a bit subjective, but to me, the key difference between Jedi powers crossing the line into superpowers is mysticism.

In the Prequels, the super-speed-running and the flipping around all felt too much like superhero powers to me. These powers are too predictable in result, somehow, or too easily accessed. In the OT, Luke had to tap into something mystical--to focus--in order to move something with his mind, or to contact Leia telepathically. Even if you think Rey is overpowered, she still had to close her eyes and focus on a mystical force to draw power. She couldn't just flip around and run super-fast at will. Plus, these Prequel powers have no real basis in any established, real-world mystical tradition, which disconnects them from the feel Star Wars.

But in TLJ, I actually love some of the new Force abilities. As Luke says, it's not a "power" Jedi have. It's something mystical, something bigger, which was what the Prequels seemed to forget. The new powers, especially Luke's doppleganger at the end, take immense focus and spiritual discipline. Even Kylo acknowledges this, stating that the effort to connect his and Rey's mind would tear her apart. And perhaps more importantly, these powers feel more connected to the real-world mystical influences of Star Wars. They feel more like traditional mystical abilities than superpowers. Especially the doppleganger/doubling bit, as I've learned through my deep obsession with Twin Peaks, has deep mystical roots in real-world cultures.

 

It's a fine line, but Kylo pretty much stopped a speeding laser... literally.

 

Having something along the lines of a planet crashing into Chewie or some other random character and killing them or having some random force user (who is more OP than Rey) bringing down a star destroyer using the force would be example of "how much is too much" for me. Have we came across that threshold in the Disney SW timeline, not even close.

 

Dang, I just realized how close some people are to being future Star Wars "haters". I almost guarantee this is a topic that will come to fruition in the very near future and if you think you're on the "correct" side of it, I would point you towards Mortis and the prequels (both straight from George Lucas). Maybe I'm wrong on this but it seems like you're both sitting in the same boat as many people who had certain lines that they didn't want crossed (Luke's ending for example) and now they're done with Star Wars. You just have different lines then the others.

To answer the original question, if it serves the story and the overall universe then it's not too far. The how is much more important than the what.

 

I see it like... uhh, for these forums, we'll say "art": you know it when you see it.

For instance, right now I'd say I can't see a plausible situation where Luke or Han come back alive in IX (and yes, I've seen S4 of Rebels...)

But I hate to tuck myself into a corner like that, because what if the writers manage to include an engaging plot where exactly that happens? Who am I to say they shouldn't try?

I know this is hardly the concrete answer that you may be looking for in this thread, so let me try to expand on it a little:

The Sequel Trilogy, in my mind, has already crossed some lines. For example, I've been pretty vocal about how much I dislike the sense of scale in TLJ (though it has improved with subsequent viewings). So I'm hardly a fan that sees no wrong in the series.

That being said, the "you know it when you see it" cuts both ways. I can't think of a specific plausible instance that would drive me away from being a fan of the series, but I'm also not saying that it's impossible, either.

 

I absolutely agree with all of this.

and for me, Space whales are too far.

 

something close as palpatine clones, luke clones, super weapons that have plot armor and creatures immune to the force

 

Luuke would be a masterpiece of cinema that would make Welles weep and Kurosawa feel incompetent.