1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Full ST Backstory Theory

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by robotical712, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2015
    Posts:
    4,753
    Likes Received:
    67,563
    Trophy Points:
    171,477
    Credits:
    33,305
    Ratings:
    +71,746 / 13 / -5
    @McDiarmid ok I will counter your points

    1). Yes iam still not 100% sold on the Snoke manipulated Ben from birth & yes I know what it says in Empires End but I don't take that as 100% profs that is what when down. Leia saying that it was all Snoke from the Star could very well be read as her 1 not wanting to take full responsibility for what happened to Ben after all it a lot easier to blame some other guy then to blame herself. 2 she was hardly going to turn around & tell Han that it was all his fault that Ben turned after all that whole conversation was about Leia trying to reassure Han about Bens fall.

    2) absolutely no evidence that the force is keeping him alive that your speculation & personally I don't see it after all if the force could do something like that why was Vader walking around in a life support suit,

    3) Right Rey may be naturally powerful but she is untrained so I did not think it would need a all powerful force user to turn her to the dark side just some kind New who is very good at manipulating people which I already acknowledge Snoke is.

    4) of course he does by thIs point Ben as s going to buy whatever Snoke is telling him that doesn't mean it's true quite frankly Snoke could be telling Ben a bunch of BS & he would believe it & accept that he makes him stronger hell its quite possible that Snoke has taught her m everything he knows & is now just stringing Ben along with promises of things he has no way of delivering.

    5) see point 4) after all he is hardly going to turn around & tellhim soory bud but I don't know what to do you are on your own now of course he want Ben close so that he can continue to manipulate him which is far easier in person.

    @FN-3263827 reply to points 4 & 5 is actually more on point than mine but you get the idea that things are quite as set in stone as you believe them to be.
     
    #101 Addi Ras, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    • Like Like x 3
  2. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137

    Weak Snoke is not good for the films guys. Snoke as Wizzard of Ozz?

    At the end of TFA Snoke shows he was reserved(which was obvious troughout film) and finally, as a last resolt decides to train Kylo Ren in the subtleties of the Force.
    He reveals himself as unindentified Dark side Master.

    One more thing, in the TFA novelization during the last fight between Kylo and Rey, after Rey knocked down Kylo there is a hint of someone telling her(trough Force) " kill Him". It lefts the feeling it was Snoke.

    It will surprise me if Snoke is physicaly strong, but I am sure he is very powerfull in Force.He is some damaged old Dark Side Master. And he had apprentice( at least one) before.
     
    #102 McDiarmid, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  3. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,413
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,954
    Ratings:
    +157,742 / 65 / -7
    you are probably right, but if Snoke is just a MacGuffin (a ruse, a twist, misdirection), and the REAL evil is someone or something else, then Snoke's actual power is irrelevant.

    The Wizard of Oz, after all, was just right for that particular story in the end--don't you agree?

    wouldn't you be happy enough if Snoke was all smoke and mirrors and the real bad guy actually WAS Plagueis from somewhere in the Unknown Regions, pulling the strings?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Original Original x 1
  4. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137

    Did you just mentioned ...Pla....?

    Please keep going... what was that you said again...?

    [​IMG]
     
    #104 McDiarmid, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 5
  5. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Posts:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    10,967
    Credits:
    4,118
    Ratings:
    +4,146 / 27 / -18
    I doubt Snoke asking for Rey to brought before him has any relation to how powerful he is. She has potential but is untrained. Kylo could have killed her in the forest. He could have killed her in the chair. Snoke calling for her doesn't indicate how powerful he is. He just thinks he can do better than Kylo.

    Jocasta Nu was the keeper of the jedi archives, a Librarian. Underneath she was still a trained Jedi. I don't think she would have been fearful of Rey but that doesn't make her massively powerful.
     
    #105 Fearghas_Ajax, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Posts:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    5,585
    Trophy Points:
    16,317
    Credits:
    6,765
    Ratings:
    +9,458 / 246 / -104
    Unless Kylo is the REAL villain. Unless the character even before the start of TFA was the agent that broke the happy ending of ROTJ. Ben killed the Jedi, Ben was the reason the pricess and the pirate never lived happily ever after. He might be manipulated by Snoke but that requires opportunity more than it requires power. Kylo might leave TLJ or the triology as the true threat. Snoke might simply be who we see. An old leader with some Dark Side knowledge that runs the 1st order and drove Ben to the unthinkable. Kylo is the Skywalker. Kylo is connected directly to Vader a far greater villain in literary or film history than DP.

    How by leaning forward in his chair and telling them to bring Kylo to him? How was he reserved what power did he show beyond what he displayed throughout the film. He wants to complete Kylo's training sure but the nature of this is wide open.

    Pretty sure it was something telling he. Which might simply be generic temptation.

    That makes a ton of sense to me but a powerful darksider still has limits. If Snoke is nigh all powerful he needs no SKB, no 1st Order and no apprentice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137

    Its clear to me that Ren strives for more knowledge and its clear he thinks Snoke can offer him more of it.

    Kylo also knows what he must do...kill his father. Kylo also knows Snoke can sense light side pull, which confirms Snoke's profane Force senses.

    Let me remind all of us that it is referenced numerous times in former and in new canon that Dark side Apprentice initiation was often finished by Patricidal acts made by apprentice. For instance Darth Plagueis asked Palpatine to kill his parents, to pass the test and align himself with the Dark side, after which Plagueis teached him everything.

    I find Snoke's position and demands made upon Kylo consistent with the one of a Dark side Master ( Dark Lord).
     
    #107 McDiarmid, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Posts:
    1,272
    Likes Received:
    3,529
    Trophy Points:
    12,667
    Credits:
    5,051
    Ratings:
    +4,520 / 72 / -23
    And Jocasta Nu, trained by the Jedi and all, is not the master villain of an entire trilogy. Assuming Snoke is, and there isn't some other big bad guy hiding in the background, you don't make him an over-hyped librarian. That's not a master bad guy.

    I'm sorry but those who continue to insist that somehow Snoke is anything BUT a powerful dark side user of some sort as simply being obstinate and ignoring the facts.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
  9. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Posts:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    10,967
    Credits:
    4,118
    Ratings:
    +4,146 / 27 / -18
    I do believe we will find Snoke to be powerful. But being a powerful darkside user doesn't equate to an all mighty, powerful darksider as some tend to express he is. Don't think we know as of yet how powerful he is. I was simply implying that because you are a librarian doesn't mean you could not be powerful too and just because he requested Rey to be brought to him doesn't necessarily mean he is all powerfull and fearless... an actually librarian probably would not be scared of Rey either at this point!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  10. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Posts:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    5,585
    Trophy Points:
    16,317
    Credits:
    6,765
    Ratings:
    +9,458 / 246 / -104
    How powerful?

    I honestly think that he is likely to be of significant power in some form or another.

    What I have objected to is that the levels of power that some people claim. Some have suggested that his powers are godlike. I don't think that is necessary or supported by the story. I said it before Snoke is Space Dracula not Space Devil.

    That said I don't necessarily think that Snoke is the actual antagonist. Kylo has the real connection to Vader. Kylo killed Han his father. That was his real test. Luke didn't kill his father but Kylo did. Kylo is the anti Luke. Snoke might simply be Kylo's back story.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  11. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137
    Only the Force is almighty.

    Snoke is just a top class darksider,in the class of Darth Sidious,maybe less powerfull in brute burst power as he is also a damaged now and obviously very old,but he is more caucious strategian, wise.

    There is no real Star Wars without major villain behind , a powerfull darksider behind the plot, because SW are epic fight between good and evil, it was always like that.

    Yes of course main protagonists are guys like Kylo, Rey, Luke, but without supreme darksider ( he is already designated Supreme, isn't it) it will not be Star Wars anymore.

    Was Palpatine main character of Star Wars or supporting one?
    He was supporting, but a base for the story.

    If we imagine Star Wars plot as a painting, than a main villain (previously Palpatine, now Snoke) can be imagined as a base color put on the painting first (black one...) upon which other colours, other characters are than put to make the entire structure of that painting.

    Imagine Original Star Wars just as they were in every detail, except in one, that Palpatine was not a Dark side Lord but a liar who falsely claimed his powers?
    No Star Wars. Ok I am wrong, there will be Star Wars, a bad Star Wars, not worth of New trilogy for sure.

    George Lucas thought for years what would be the way to make continuity of saga, a New trilogy, a new base black color for his next painting.
    He designed Darth Plagueis the Wise for that purpose.

    We should be thrilled as we will see what did guys found to substitue this brainchild of genius.

    de colores

    [​IMG]
     
    #111 McDiarmid, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  12. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Posts:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    5,585
    Trophy Points:
    16,317
    Credits:
    6,765
    Ratings:
    +9,458 / 246 / -104
    Snoke is the Supreme Leader of the first Order.

    A similar title to Supreme Chancellor. Vellorum wasn't a powerful Darksider. Its a political measure of power. In the case of the 1st Order perhaps a bit of cult devotion.

    Lucas introduced DP to cast the prophecy into doubt narratively. Was Anakin truly a child of the Force ir made from Sith sorcery. Later he settled the issue by 1- Stating out right Anakin was the Chosen One. 2- The Tarkin novel soeaks about "the Force Striking Back." Settling that it was the Force and not DP that created Anakin directly.

    Anakin has always been the connective tissue of the saga, his fall, his redemption and now his legacy. DP destroys Anakin's centrality. Removing Vader/Anakin as the center.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  13. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137

    DP achievements legacy made possible Anakin becoming Vader . Vader and Anakin are the center, and mystery of DP immortality quest lies between them.

     
    #113 McDiarmid, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Posts:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    10,967
    Credits:
    4,118
    Ratings:
    +4,146 / 27 / -18
    Do you have any reference for this. I have never read anywhere about Lucas thinking so long and hard about it and coming up with DP for all of it. PH has even stated that DP wasn't in Lucas' treatments for the ST, so I'm curious as to where this has been stated. As @Pastor Barndog stated, Anakin has always been the connective tissue between the trilogies. His fall, his redemption, and his legacy. He connects it all (along with other characters recurring in the sagas-His Chilren and grandchild/ren). So far for what I have seen, the importance of DP is based on fan interpretation, not on official sources.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  15. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Posts:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    5,585
    Trophy Points:
    16,317
    Credits:
    6,765
    Ratings:
    +9,458 / 246 / -104
    Looks that way.

    But it returns the force as the actual agent. Majes it clear he is the chosen one.

    If fans didn't want more EU content after ROTS I think DP would have remained a Sith Parable. But because we crave content we were blessed with DP is Sidious' master, and so on.
     
    #115 Pastor Barndog, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  16. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Posts:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    10,967
    Credits:
    4,118
    Ratings:
    +4,146 / 27 / -18
    I think the force struck back to bring balance to the force. It could have been specifically for DP or could have been from a millenia of abusive use of the force. If you are a die hard fan and read the DP novel, then you may see the former. If you a fan but don't read all the EU, then you probably see the latter.
     
    #116 Fearghas_Ajax, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  17. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137
    There are hints in new Canon of evil that exists for ages and is the different face of one same thing, hinting common root.

    Examples of "illusive hints":

    -Maz Kanata says she has withness same evil in different forms, ( Sith, Empire, New Order) from TFA film

    - Adviser Tashu ( Aftermath novel) says interesting things:

    * Darksiders are a "plague" in the bones of the galaxy that will return always

    * Darksiders (some) were able to live for ages by draining life Force from their enemies and captives-now this part is very interesting because we know about rule of 2 lasting 1000 years, but if Sith Lords were able to live for centuries, who were they ?.

    And in fact how many Sith lords lived in last 1000 years druing rule of 2 if one Sith Lord could prolong his life for many centuries, whatabout just One, same, spreding "plague"?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Posts:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    10,967
    Credits:
    4,118
    Ratings:
    +4,146 / 27 / -18
    I think this is an example where DP is being read into things he isn't necessarily intended to be. Kinda like seeing DP in everything that is read, maybe even toast.

    A "plague" is an deadly infection/virus that spreads. For me these quotes are just emphasizing that evil spreads like a plague. It spreads across the galaxy and must be fought and resisted. Just like an actual infection/virus. I don't feel like it is a neon arrow pointing to DP and showing DP is the key to it all. It means just what it says.

    To me a darksider is someone who uses the darkside of the force. A "Sith" is someone who uses the darkside following a specific code, opposite of the Jedi. As of yet, we don't know of anyone specific person that has prolonged his rule for centuries. As for the Sith, that ended when Vader killed his master as it usually happened with the Rule of 2. Just in the case, Vader killed himself also. So that Sith rule died.
     
    #118 Fearghas_Ajax, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  19. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,898
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,786
    Ratings:
    +7,941 / 410 / -137
    DP is well established in the film as the only one who cheated death.
    Said in theater scene and confirmed during initiation of Vader in front of Darth Sidious as the only one who acheived to cheat death.
    His acheivement are defined as ultimate goal of both Sidious and his new apprentice Vader in the film.

    DP story is pivotal in turning Anakin to Dark side.

    If Snoke would be Plagueis, he will be in fact one who enabled Vader to happen in the first place.
     
    #119 McDiarmid, Jul 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2015
    Posts:
    4,753
    Likes Received:
    67,563
    Trophy Points:
    171,477
    Credits:
    33,305
    Ratings:
    +71,746 / 13 / -5
    De we see DP cheat death in the film?

    Your are taking Siddious at his word that he did. The guy that is a master manipulator he told Anakin exactly what he needed to tell him in order to help turn him to the dark side & personally I wouldn't trust a word of that he says to Anakin after all he was never interested in saving Padme just corrupting Anakin.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
Loading...

Share This Page