Game of Thrones, anyone?

The interesting thing about Tyrion is I see this as an opinion and I often wondered why because to me, he actually became a fully realized character here.
He wasn't a lush whoring about trying desperately to gain his father's approval.

Tyrion's arc really ended when he killed Tywin. He no longer had to prove himself to his father. He accepted that his father would never love him as much as his other children DESPITE proving repeatedly he is as good or better at various things than Jaime or Cersei.

If he stayed the same Tyrion after killing Tywin, he becomes a blast character to me, he becomes a gag or comic relief. Sort of like Tormund, but it works for Tormund because he's just Tormund, not Tyrion fookin' Lannister.

Tyrion is (mostly) sober now, he isn't whoring about and is not trying to impress his father but rather just be a good adviser. He lost his edge but as he gets back to Westeros you see it coming back. Spent too long outside of King's Landing but now it's coming back to him.

 

Those are all great points. It's just that since Tyrion killed Tywin, he's been off his game and he really hasn't got it back yet. He's still a great character, but as an advisor to Dany he's made mistake after mistake. Some were justified, others not so much. But I liked seeing Tyrion at his best, which is why I said what I said.

On a completely different note, people complaining about The Long Night being one episode are both right and wrong IMO. On one hand, The Long Night needed FAR more buildup and payoff than it got. But on the other hand, THAT WAS NEVER GOING TO BE THE FINAL BATTLE. Game of Thrones was never fully about the White Walkers. Game of Thrones was never going to end on a great battle of good versus evil like Lord of the Rings and The Wheel of Time (and I assume The Stormlight Archive will), because that's not what it's about and that's not what George RR Martin believes. Defeating the Dark Forces of Evil doesn't magically fix all of humanity's problems because humanity is the real villain of the series. So while I understand and sympathize with people who didn't like how it all went down (and even I find myself souring on it as the weeks pass), I can't bring myself to say that the showrunners and Martin were wrong finishing up the Long Night first.

 

s08e04 was one of the weaker episodes for me but there was plenty to enjoy.
Finales carrying big expectations must be tricky to deliver.
I remind myself it's a different show these days and I'm happy to cut GOT (and TROS) a little slack by trying to dull expectations.
Two episodes to go!

Spoiler: potential spoiler for s08e04

 

Since I posted that survey, "The Last of the Starks" has aired and I now find myself in a position where David and Dan have metaphorically stabbed me in the chest and stomped on my corpse because they've completely doubled down on storytelling ideas that are completely unearned and inconsistent with previous seasons and that hinge on completely "tanking" practically every single one of the show's female characters.

My frustration and outrage is also compounded by leaked spoilers concerning the final two episodes of the series and have me lamenting how far the series has fallen in terms of quality in just 4 episodes after genuinely being one of the best television series in history.

Even though I'm frustrated and have become reduced to "hatewatching" the final two episodes out of a sense of duty and completion, I'm still going to answer my own survey:

Season 5

Tyrion and Dany

Dany burning down the House of the Dosh Kaleen

Season 8

Littlefinger

The writers turning Jon and Dany against each other
The writers trying to turn Dany into the "Mad Queen"
Sansa saying that all of the abuse and rape she suffered made her strong

Season 5

Yara Greyjoy
Ellaria Sand
Obara Sand
Nymeria Sand
Tyene Sand

The Sand Snakes and Ellaria's coup in Dorne (killing Myrcella with poison and stabbing Doran specifically)

 

That's fair, and I think that you are supposed to like that Tyrion and root for him to get back to that level. Just my two cents.

As to the second part, the show explicitly states that the war for the throne doesn't matter; it doesn't hint at it, It doesn't tease it, it explicitly says it.
The show (and book) open with the "existential" threat that is the White Walkers/Others.

If they didn't want it to be the grand finale:
1. Don't open with it and make it the lead story.
2. Don't give the most emphasis on the show to the character who is explicitly tied to this (thru 7 Jon lead the entire cast in screen time)
3. Finish it in s7 then. Putting it off to 8 did nothing but build more hype for it. Hell, they explicitly hyped this battle up as the end-all-be-all.

I don't think we can say whether or not this is going to be the big battle of the book or not because he's so far behind on it. However, logistically it made more sense for it to be in the show. You can have the big battle of good vs evil be the main focus but have the greed and corruption of humans spoil it to make it the bittersweet ending they discussed. Instead of a clean victory Jon has to sacrifice Dany/Sansa/Arya etc. or Jon has to sacrifice himself because of the selfishness of others so they can with the war. There are ways to weave this into the main story and keep with George's overall themes.

Their biggest issue was not wrapping up one in s7 and the other in s8. Especially if one is as inconsequential as a plot device to weaken Dany's army....

 

Just saw the 5th episode of GOT yesterday and I noticed that the people are complaining a lot online.

I never was a big fan of the show because GOT was always confusing to me: too many characters, too many cities and plots (very hard to follow, my wife is always helping me to remember some characters and his connections….hehe).

But, GOT is pure fun and entertaining, also they constructed very good characters as Tyrion, Cersei and Arya for example.

I really enjoyed the 5th episode that I saw last night but most of the fans hated it! Good for me I guess.

 

Apologies for not having followed this thread, but I would like to chime in with my opinion that GoT a fantastic show; really great TV drama with outstanding acting, production value, tension & stakes. I really, really love it!

Granted, the latter seasons have suffered somewhat from B&W's decision to hurry up and end it already , but it is still a quality show superior to the VAST majority of stuff on TV, and I am looking forward to seeing what the spin-off(s) will end up being.

Of course fans complain, 'cause that's basically what fandoms are these days -- gangs of complainers roaming the internet like Alex and his droogs! -- but that doesn't change the fact that GoT is a great show with a huge story and just SO much quality. We are spoiled children throwing tantrums when our entitlement isn't recognized in art and pop culture.

So yeah, GoT is AWESOME

 

I just read a really cool piece about how "The Bells" is an awesome episode.




And for the most part I think it's really well done and I agree with the post. This is all rambly because I'm thinking off the top of my head right now, but I think the problem with Game of Thrones at this moment (and this could ALL change in the finale) is that we "the mass collective" want is very different from what the creators (D&D as well as GRRM) have intended. We have burdened the show with our expectations and experience and when it rebels we get upset. It reminds me of TLJ in a lot of ways, which I think scares some fans for the new Star Wars trilogy.* That is not to say there aren't true criticisms of the show and the season. The writing for the most part has gone down hill due to the outpacing of the books and the need to move the plot forward. Character moments seem forced (Jon and Dany falling in love so quick; Bran's whole "I have to go now" with NO EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT THE WHAT IS DOING; the entirety of Sansa's beef with Dany*) or like a weird version of fan-service (Arya and Gendry).

But to say that the show is bad simply because it doesn't go the way the mass audience wanted isn't a good or correct argument. To be upset by this is fine, but to objectively state "this is bad because I was wrong/didn't like it" isn't fair. THAT BEING SAID, I am ready and have my "think-piece" ready if/when Game of Thrones has the wrong person sit on the Iron Throne! But that is more about catharsis in fiction rather than anything else.


*This doesn't scare me so long as D&D AND RJ are working together - RJ might like surprises and twists, but all the ones in TLJ follow a pattern that can be followed and more or less make sense.

*This could have been fixed with Sansa seeing/knowing Dany was "unfit to rule" and trying to explain that to Jon, and the northerners simply following her lead.

 

Sure, Daenerys was gripped by fear right when she won the war, when she got what she's been chasing her entire life, when she could finally have peace. She was so terrified that she decided to torch a city that was home to a million people, all of them harmless to her at that moment. She wasn't gripped by fear when Viserion fell into the frozen lake, and she wasn't gripped by fear when Rhaegal was shot down from the sky like he was nothing but a bug because she couldn't turn her head and just LOOK (easily the most infuriating scene in GoT). No, it was those damn bells that finally did it.
People can rationalize it however they want, but it still won't make sense. I have my own way of doing that, mostly because Emilia Clarke's acting was so good that it almost made up for the bad writing (and the music was great too). But that doesn't mean that the episode makes sense objectively. And blaming fan expectations is just as flimsy of an argument as saying "This is bad because I didn't like it". Which, by the way, no one is saying.
But here is something that I really do like about this whole mess...The show has been going down since season 4 or 5, and many accused the writers of having a "feminist agenda". Especially after s08e03. Which is ridiculous, because bad writing CAN be just that, bad writing. And now, when King's Landing was burned to the ground because of two crazy women, many people claim that the writers are misogynistic. I find that SO funny. It's like poetry, it rhymes lol

 

Was I the only one that really enjoyed the last episode of GOT? There's a massive complaint on line about that episode and specially about the last season.

Well, my wife hated it...hahaha

 

Spoiler: Spoilers for S8 Ending

I wonder what would've happened if Dany hadn't burned King's Landing?

The Lannisters were already surrendering, so I assume King's Landing still would've been taken. In fact, Dany's army probably would've grown from King's Landing recruits and resources.

Cersei and Jaime might've would've survived. At least, the battle- I don't think they'd survive long if they didn't escape the city.

Dany and Jon would've probably still had some tension, but I don't see him killing her anytime soon. Her killing him maybe, but I kinda doubt it- not even mad Dany did that.

There would also be tension between Dany's armies and the North, though obviously under different circumstances.

No way Dany lets Sansa be Queen of the North.

Having shown more grace in accepting King's Landing's surrender, I could actually see the people of King's Landing supporting Dany's greater ambitions of world conquest, should she still have them. I could even see some members like Tyrion or Jon be willing to view Dany's imperialism as a grand noble crusade rather than a slaughter, since they hadn't seen her just massacre a city.

Any thoughts?

 

Well, yeah, that was the inherent tragedy to the situation. There could have been a super happy time ending where everyone got a puppy and an ice-cream cone, but human failings ruined it. Like they always do. That's the running theme of the show. Figures that's how it would end

 

GoT is over... we waited 2 years for 6 episodes... 10 episodes wouldn't been enough, heck 13 episodes wouldn't been enough... to say good bye to it... the show runners were smart enough to know when to end it.... before it got really bad... GAME OF THRONESSSSS LA, LA, LA, LA...

 

I found this video surprisingly funny.

Spoiler

Warning I havn't watch the linked video past the penultimate episode talking points as I want watch the finale again today before digesting all the critiques.

--- Double Post Merged, May 24, 2019, Original Post Date: May 24, 2019 ---

I re-watched it last night and have mixed feelings.
Some likes:

• some beautiful shots
• good sound design
• that editing between Sandor and Arya
• the way every Stark ended up contributing to the death of civilians. (I always enjoyed the complexity of the no pure "goodies" or "baddies" GOT narrative.)

 

Spoiler

I'm not sure it's necessarily that simple, though.

Obviously, slaughtering an entire city isn't an ideal outcome, but I think there would still be some major conflict if this had happened, still. Even without going full on mad, Dany and the North had been coming to a head pretty quickly, and it was far from resolved by the battle of Kings' Landing.

I really don't think a "puppy and Ice-cream" ending was ever in the cards, even without a Mad Queen.

 

I’m not sure this needs to be spoiler tagged in a GOT thread, but I’ll respect it

I mean that over and over again in the series, had people been able to put aside their egos and grander senses of self, and act on what might be best in the bigger picture - there wouldn’t have been need for such catastrophe and bloodshed. If the people in power could just manage to move past their given natures.

Take Ned for example. In season 1, Littlefinger offered him a rather sensible solution: Become Regent, accept the farce of Joffrey as rightful heir, and help guide him toward a path of moral leadership. But that premise was incompatible with Ned’s code of honor. And in all likelihood, it would have been incompatible with Joffrey’s darker nature. So the kingdoms are divided and everyone suffers.

In the end, what we have is Jon betraying his own code of honor (the way his “father” couldn’t) and doing what he believed was in the benefit of the greater good. Even though he’s still conflicted over whether it was the correct choice. That’s my takeaway anyhow.