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George Lucas Planned for Luke to go to a Dark Place

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DailyPlunge, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. Charlie07

    Charlie07 Force Sensitive

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    I always find this version of backlash against Disney the funniest and oddest. There are multiple quotes from George that highlight he thought of EU as fan fiction and a "parallel universe" that was outside his ideas for the movies. This idea of the "big bad corporation is destroying star wars" is so cheap and lazy, but it gets the website clicks and the youtube views.

    I understand that people don't like TLJ and it didn't validate head-canon 100%, but this idea that the sequel trilogy should've just been a validation of EU fan fiction is so bizarre. Which version of EU were the masses dying to see? What was the "right story" for VII-IX?

    Even though George has said A LOT of different things about his sequel trilogy, i wonder if the same hate / fan-retconning would now be directed at george if he made the sequel trilogy about the whills-microbiotic world?

    I honestly cannot wait for IX news because it might refocus the fandom into new discussions, but my guess is the usual suspects will return with the click bait.
     
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  2. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. GL did explain his attitude towards the EU and it's important to share his views on this, so there are no misconceptions. In his interview for Starlog 337, 2005 he said the following:

    In his Total Film interview in 2008, he did not only set the record straight about the EU, but also went into specifics about the EU sequels of his 6 episodes:

    He obviously changed his mind about a sequel trilogy and it appears, studying LucasFilm concept art for episode VII you mention in your article and @DailyPlunge in his post, that he participated in this idea of having Luke hiding from his friends... So no, this was none of JJ's empty "mystery boxes" or RJ's "trolling" surprises people like to complain so much about... It seems that GL and Disney were on the same page about this.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I'm just being snarky and couldn't find the Big Lebowksi gif in enough time so just typed it lol
     
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  4. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    @Pomojema is correct about this not being news, but I'm still surprised at how common the idea is that everything Lucas wanted was destroyed. It's also silly someone marked his post rude.

    There are still a lot of people who wanted movies built out of the EU. I'm not sure how that could have been done and at the same time follow was Lucas' vision.
    This is true, but I think I'm more excited about getting out of this era altogether. It's a huge risk, but a new story not connected to everything we already know is exciting.

    Lucasfilm can always go back and make a Luke trilogy in the future.
     
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  5. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I don’t doubt that Lucas may have planned for Luke to be a hermit, but it’s all in the execution of that arc that the fans would have ultimately liked or disliked.

    -Would Lucas have had Luke toss the Lightsaber over his shoulder?

    -Would Lucas have had Luke pretty much ignore Chewy (except for asking about Han) the whole movie as he’s relegated to Rey’s Uber Driver?

    -Would Lucas have had Luke lose to Rey in their duel before she leaves for Kylo?

    -Would Lucas have done the 3 flashbacks where one had crazy eyes Luke ready to kill Ben?

    Who knows? I wasn’t a fan of Lucas portrayal of Anakin in ROTS, so maybe his Luke could have been worse? Could have been better?

    That is why I feel when the SW movies try to go big and have huge character arc, they don’t work for me. The OT, R1 and Solo are simple (from a certain POV) and don’t try to be too much and they succeed for me in that respect, IMO.

    Keep it simple SW, that’s how I see it. I know many see it differently but I can only say what works for me.
     
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  6. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    This.

    The only thing we know about Lucas' early treatments was that Luke was going to be in exile, trying to regain his lost faith in the Force and the Jedi. Then the female protagonist of the story would be the one to arrive, and the lessons she'd impart to Luke as an apprentice would be the thing to shake him out of his faithless state and return as a mentor character for the next two films...and ultimately dying in the final film, if sources are to be believed.

    The skeleton of these ideas are still preserved to a degree in the ST films. It's their execution that I, and several other fans, take issue with...not the idea of a depressed Luke, or the idea of him dying, or the female apprentice he takes in. It's how they were done through the writing that causes us to pinch our noses and flee to another room to vomit. Or in my case, flee to other threads to vomit.
     
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  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I still believe if they were radically going to change Luke in the ST, then develop it over 3 movies to give the fans a true payoff in Episode 9 just as the PT was essentially about Anakin’s arc.

    That way you can truly develop Luke’s mixed feelings in Episode 7, his return to help the Resistance in Episode 8, and his final bow in Episode 9.
     
  8. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    By the way, to the people who think that the Sequel Trilogy is adhering to even most of Lucas' intentions for the story, I present you with counter-evidence from multiple horses' mouths:

    "I happen to know that George didn't kill Luke until the end of [Episode] 9, after he trained Leia. Which is another thread that was never played upon [in The Last Jedi]. George had an overall arc – if he didn't have all the details, he had sort of an overall feel for where the [sequel trilogy was] going – but this one's more like a relay race. You run and hand the torch off to the next guy, he picks it up and goes."
    ---Mark Hamill Interview

    “What I wish is that they had been more accepting of his guidance and advice. Because he had an outline for ‘7,’ ‘8,’ and ‘9’. And it is vastly different to what they have done.
    ---Mark Hamill Interview


    "The issue was ultimately, they looked at the stories and they said, 'We want to make something for the fans.' People don't actually realize it's actually a soap opera and it's all about family problems - it's not about spaceships. So they decided they didn't want to use those stories, they decided they were going to do their own thing so I decided, 'fine... I'll go my way and I let them go their way.'"
    ---George Lucas Interview


    "I came on board and Disney had already decided they didn’t want to go that(Lucas') direction, so the mandate was to start from scratch."
    ---J.J. Abrams Interview
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Great Find
     
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  10. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    ...that tweet has never suggested that he went "dark"
     
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  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    I loved TLJ from the very beginning. I also felt that some of the criticism of the movie and Rian Johnson was not merited. I said the portrayal of Luke in TLJ was not something that Rian Johnson did. It was setup with the opening crawl of TFA and Han description of what had become of Luke. I never felt that if Luke really had left to go find something he wouldnt give his sister and best friend a way to communicate. It always felt that he fled because of his failure. This was all setup in TFA. Many believe that TLJ betrayed JJ Abrams story and Rian Johnson simply did what he wanted.

    I felt that the evidence didnt support that. It is one of the things that bothers me most. The ideas that the directors of the 3 movies have blank slate to do what they want. That an outline of story arc's wasnt developed and set forth by story group along with directors. That just seemed to crazy for multi-billion dollar franchise.

    When the "Art of TLJ" book came out I feel my view was substantiated. Concept art work for TFA and TLJ were developed together by LucasFilm. This explains why the "Art of TFA" book was rather small. Because they couldnt show art work that would give away TLJ story direction.

    In addition to art the "Art of TLJ" book had lots of comments that also gave hints. It is important to see that the structure of TLJ Luke arc was established in 2013 while both TFA was in production and TLJ was just being sketched out together. Here are some:

    George Lucas was involved at the very beginning and he approved Luke as a recluse in hiding:
    "I would say so, yes. I worked on TFA from pretty much the very beginning and was present at the January 16, 2013 meeting at Skywalker Ranch with George Lucas that Christian mentions here (and that is described in greater detail in The Art of The Last Jedi).

    “My first image I made for TFA. This was January of 2013. Luke was being described as a Col. Kurtz type hiding from the world in a cave... I got a George “Fabulouso” on it to boot.” - Lucasfilm design supervisor Christian Alzmann

    Luke is hiding away.
    "At this point in the story, thirty years after the fall of the Empire, Luke has gone to a dark place. He always had this potential dark side within him, being that his father was Darth Vader. So he is really struggling with that." - Doug Chiang, May 2013, The Art of TLJ book

    Luke slowly comes back.
    "He ended up secluding himself in this Jedi temple on a new planet, and he's just there meditating, reassessing his whole life. Gradually, over the arc of the movie, he rediscovers his vitality and comes back to himself." - Doug Chiang, May 2013, The Art of TLJ book
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2018 ---
    1. Sure. He had Luke toss lightsaber himself. In ESB Yoda stressed that the Force was about spirituality (not best word, but what I will use) not about flesh and objects. Lucas also had jokes about farts and stepping in crap in his movies.
    3. Luke did not lose to Rey. He totally dominated then she pulled the lightsaber. Do you really think he was in danger?
    4. I do recall that Lucas used term "From a certain point of view". Point of view has always been important to Star Wars. RJ and TLJ just did it visually like many films in the past have done.

    I think the biggest clues you can get to character arcs in Star Wars are myth and heroes journey stories that have lasted the test of time. Young heroes often lose way and fail as they grow old.
     
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  12. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    This thread was pointed to those who don't think Lucas had any influence on this trilogy. Your opinions about the execution are fine, but I'm not sure how it relates to this topic.

    Lucas had and continues to have a strong influence on how this trilogy was developed. It's a shame there wasn't someone around during the prequel trilogy to guide some of his ideas.
    Did you read the tweet thread?

    “My first image I made for TFA. This was January of 2013. Luke was being described as a Col. Kurtz type hiding from the world in a cave... I got a George “Fabulouso” on it to boot.” - Lucasfilm design supervisor Christian Alzmann

    That's pretty dark.
     
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  13. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    This is a good post, but although some ideas may have come from George that doesnt make them good ideas. For instance the 1st one. Really Luke would die after training Leia. Maybe this was a long time ago when actors were much younger. I find it really bad idea if George was thinking that a late middle aged/early elderly woman would go through Jedi training. Why not train her many years earlier. So I suspect this would be some of the information that Mark and George talked about back in the OT era. Many of those ideas had to be thrown away with all the years that had gone by.

    I find the George Lucas comment interesting, because ST really to me is about family and personal problems. I think many people that dont like TLJ really wanted it to be Star Wars Avengers style. Dominated by Space Battles and with Luke in particular the Jedi version of Superman. Not a human man with human feelings that is able to draw power from a natural force.

    JJ quote is also interesting because the Art of books paint it so that GL ideas or at least some of his main ideas were not thrown away.
     
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  14. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    That is point IMO. That Luke went into exile is surely something setup in TFA. And just like this thread proves, even before JJ came on board by Lucas himself.
    About Lucas, I will only add that since he's the man who invented SW but he's not the man currently writing any SW content, all the actual SW content is.... fan fiction.
    Sure it's done by professional people, but it is fan fiction :)
    A fan fiction that each one of us, may like or not, or like sometimes, dislike others.

    However... the only thing that TFA adds to the idea that Luke went into exile is that he did - in Han's words - because he felt guilt.

    So sure, from this pov things are pretty clear. No one can held responsable of TFA, RJ.

    That said.... it was RJ that wrote TLJ and that explained us, how and why Luke went into exile.

    Personally, I wasn't upset of not having Luke in TFA. And I wasn't upset by TLJ because Luke is
    portrayed as someone who lost by his own choice any contact with Han and Leia.

    I wasn't upset because he wasn't portrayed as a badass Jedi smashing hundred of enemies with a
    lightsaber.
    And I am sure, many people would have been upset no matter what, if TLJ wouldn't provide them those kind of scenes, period.

    That said, I was upset by the motivations given for his choices.

    What I don't buy, is not a depressed Luke.
    What I don't buy, is not Luke making a mistake.

    What I don't buy, is not that people may change. I know they can.

    It's the specific mistake that Luke made according TLJ. That is, trying/thinking to kill a boy, his nephiew, asleep, because he my turn to the dark side.
    I don't buy this single moment of weakness, that basically subverted all that Luke should have learned, whatever he's been doing and the Jedi he was until that fatal night.

    Because sure, time and experience may change a man (as someone on Twitter said recently, defending TLJ).
    But the problem in our case - to me of course - is that a single moment of weakness did that.
    Not time and experience.
    A single moment of weakness that contradicts Luke's... experience.
    What he learned and what made of him a better Jedi than Yoda and Obi Wan.

    And by the way, trying/thinking for a moment to kill a boy because he may turn bad, is everything but a Jedi thing.
    That's not what a Jedi should do.
    If so, Luke may believe that he's not the Jedi he should be. Not that the Jedi has to end.
    It's him the wrong one here, not the Jedi teachings (that he used to understand better than his masters).

    However, in another thread, I said, if for instance, Luke's mistake was... to do with Ben what he did with his father and failing because of that...
    If, basically, with Ben the mistake Luke made was believing that just because there was still good
    inside him, what he did with Anakin would have work with his nephiew too, before being proved
    wrong... that could have work far far better to me.

    In a scenario like that, the man who saved Vader, believing in him, rejecting to fight, this man would have been left with not answers or plan.
    Something like this would have put him in the position to question all his life: all he has learnt, believed valid and the Jedi teachings.
    It would have gave him a reason to feel guilt, to go into exile with the different attidute he actualy has in TLJ if compared to that of OW or Y (they were wainting for the right time, for him and Leia. They didn't give up once and for all).
    It would have left him not knowing what to do and.... avoiding the people he is attached to, because maybe that was the problem indeed. Not the solution.

    But, the writer's choice was another. One I cannot help but not buy.
    I'll go into IX, if I'll ever do (I'll read all the spoilers and then I'll take a decision), with this... headcanon in mind.
    I can't do better than that.
     
    #34 lealt, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    I think what you are trying to say is you didnt like the reason to go into exile is because Luke had a fleeting moment where the reflexive thought to kill his nephew.

    I dont at all believe that is why he put himself in exile. It wasnt that he had a dark moment. The reason is that he failed to understand Ben was going to the dark. He failed to see that Ben had convinced others as well. He failed to detect Snoke was influencing Ben somehow. He failed to protect his other students who all were killed because of his other failures.
     
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  16. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    Let's put things in order. What he says is that he noticed something was wrong with Ben.
    That he did that, during the training.
    And because of that, that fatal night he read Ben's mind, discovering things were far worst.

    So... on one hand I agree with you. But still, the mistake the movie presents us is clearly that he thought/tried to kill him.
    Ben saw him doing that and reacted the way he did. Becauseof that, Kylo Ren was born, because using Rey's words Luke "created" him.

    I would have love to see more of what you're talking about.
     
  17. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    I never said it was related to the topic. I was emphasizing a point another user was making---especially when there were already plenty of comments prior to his making sweeping generalizations about why TLJ-dissenters didn't like the film's version of Luke, in response to this information.

    Neither of us are contributing to a topic of conversation that hadn't already started in this thread by other users.
     
  18. KeithF1138

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    What we saw was Luke having the fleeting thought, then Ben having a building fall on Luke, then Luke waking up and all his students either gone or dead. We saw Luke with a look of guilt and failure on his face as he steadied himself on R2. Then certainly he would have thought to himself. "How could I have missed this, how could I let this happen. What kind of Jedi Master am I if I failed my nephew and sister so badly." Did we really need to see this or simply by the fact we saw the outcome not tell us any human would feel this?
     
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  19. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Luke really is his father's son. The key difference between the two is Luke still struggles with the dark side and sees frightening images of the future, but he's able to stop when confronted with the temptation of killing someone to avoid it. Anakin was always looking for the easy way out. Luke was able to avoid the temptation of killing the boy would eventually kill Han Solo and lead the First Order, but he was left with the consequence of being caught in that moment.

    People can say what they want, but there are some that viewed Luke as some kind of god like super hero and his failings (while in character for the Luke I know) are at odds with the one they created in their minds.
     
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  20. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    if col kurtz is dark, i have no idea who that is...
     
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