Han Solo and Leia...What REALLY happen between them???

Who knows....[/QUOTE]

It's funny because I think that Adam Driver's face looks like he's constantly always slightly-high .

 

I know I do to, I was following @PrincessLeiaCB3's lead & was worried I might be going off topic, clearly not, the talent in creating these is out there.

 

Thanks!

 

Your welcome your highness.

 

But wait. If this timeline is correct - that raises some very serious questions! This timeline would mean that Kylo betrayed Luke and joined the FO only 5 or 6 years before TFA ((and Luke self-exiled himself) which would completely change everything we are speculating about and most importantly it would raise an even bigger question about when,why and who left Rey on Jakku and be a strong evidence that Rey is not related to either of the Skywalkers and is neither daughter of Leia's nor of Luke's as they would really have no reason to abandon Rey (or forget about her!) years before the tragic events at the academy happened...

We know that Han left when Leia sent Ben to train with Luke. This at least is what the dialogue between Leia and Han seems to imply: ("I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both.") Also from many clues it seems that Han has not seen his son (and also Leia) for much longer than just 5-6 years. 5-6 years doesn't sound very long to have such profound impact on how they reacted to each other...
We actually don't have a solid idea about when did Han leave, when was Ben send to train with Luke and how old was Ben at that time. Also we don't know when the "betrayal" of Kylo happened. It could have been years after Ben was sent to train with Luke...

Little girl Rey from Rey's vision cannot be more than 7-8 years old if not younger (6-7), which would imply that Rey was dropped off on Jakku at least 10 years before TFA. (It was confirmed that Rey is 19 at the time of TFA). This would make associating Rey with Luke, his jedi "academy" (I'm not sure if that's a correct term to use) or with Leia and Han simply not aligning at all if the events took place only as recent as 5-6 years ago before TFA, which would mean she is not at all related to neither Luke nor Leia/Han and also that she is probably not one of the students from Luke's academy (as is another popular theory)...
Because it doesn't make sense for her to be left on Jakku years before the events of Kylo betraying Luke happening years later (if the above suggested timeline of events happening only 5 or 6 years ago is correct) if she was related or associated with Luke, Han or Leia...

 

ayup. exactly.

the assumption is that Ben's betrayal and the destruction of Luke's new order happened when Ben was a "boy". but there are other possibilities. Ben, under Snoke's influence, and while still young enough to be considered a "boy" took Luke's students to the Dark side (destruction doesn't have to be literal here). later they came back to destroy Luke after Ben became Kylo Ren. Ben ditched Rey on Jakku in the original "defection" because she was too young to be one of them, but he didn't want Luke to have her (she doesn't need to be Skywalker for this to be true).

i don't know. i'm making things up because we absolutely do not have all the information to sequence the events (we don't even know what the events are except some generalities).

oh: and as far as the terminology, it not an academy (which may or may not be a clue in and of itself). it's a temple.

 

Yes. I agree!
We really don't know any of these things at this point. I also agree that from the dialogue used in the movie talking about Luke's academy, it is not really clear what happened as it wasn't directly said that Kylo killed the other students...Basically what was said was that a boy, an apprentice betrayed Luke and destroyed it all... which could mean many things...
I also believe that Kylo is the one to leave Rey on Jakku...and that this probably happened when he left Luke the first time. I also think like you, that Ben left and then again returned to destroy the academy, possibly together with the Knights of Ren, who may be also be from among Luke's former students...
I really want to know!

 

Pablo Hilago has already said that Rey was left on Jakku before the Jedi Massacre occurred. Rey was left about 14 years prior to TFA and the Jedi Academy Massacre occurred at least sometime in the past 10 years (Pablo said the Big Three had peace in the galaxy for "decades" and TFA is 30 years after ROTJ). When asked when the Jedi Massacre occured he said "it wasn't that long ago". Someone asked him if it was less than 14/15 years (when we knew Rey was dropped off on Jakku) and he said "Yeah."

Han didn't leave Leia when Leia sent Ben away. He said "Every time you looked at me, you saw him." This line doesn't make any sense if he wasn't around when Ben turned Dark and massacred the Academy. I think what Leia was referring to was that when she sent Ben away it was the beginning of the end, not that he literally left then. They are said to be together in Bloodlines which is 6 years prior to TFA and Ben should definitely be at the Academy then since he would be in his 20s. I don't see why Han and Leia wouldn't have an emotional reaction to seeing each other after being separated for 5 years or so - why wouldn't you have an emotional reaction to seeing your spouse that you still loved after not seeing them for several years? Also, don't you think if it was longer than that Leia would have filed by divorce? She's a pretty independent and tough woman.

I think Rey is Luke's daughter, but I don't think her being dropped off at Jakku before the Jedi Academy massacre contradicts the theory. Maybe the mother got pregnant, never told Luke about it, then was killed and someone else dropped Rey off. I don't think her being dropped off is related to the Jedi Academy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

The Visual Dictionary confirms Kylo is the one to perform the Jedi Massacre. I think when Han says "a boy" he wasn't being literal, he was just a father always seeing his son as a boy. Plenty of parents I know refer to their children as "boys" and "girls" even when they're in their 20s, it's a parent thing. Someone asked Pablo Hidalgo about Kylo taking off his mask and Han seeing him as a man for the first time and he said that that just meant Han didn't see any of the boy he raised in him, not that it was literally his first time seeing him as a man.

 

i don't believe the VD actually confirms anything. it says he has been tasked to hunt down the Jedi and it says he's known as Jedi Killer. neither of these things are proof positive that a temple massacre ever even happened. the name could be "lore", a reputation garnered from the fact that he's been assigned to hunt Jedi. could be watercooler chatter. the only Jedi in the galaxy left to hunt is Luke. and Luke was technically the last. if there were other students at the temple, Ren may or may have not killed them.

we simply don't know. not definitively.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

it's the only way the timeline maybe could make sense? i dunno. i agree with others that leaving Rey on Jakku did not happen at the time of the massacre and i don't believe that part of the vision in the rain is the alleged temple massacre either. i think it's some other event on Jakku, probably related to Lor San Tekka and the Church of the Force.

 

http://dorksideoftheforce.com/2015/...-force-awakens-spoilers-confirm-fan-theories/ Image of the Visual Dictionary here. It says he betrayed the other students at Luke's Jedi Academy and is responsible for their destruction. To me that's pretty clear that he's the boy Han was referring to.

 

yes, but "destruction" could mean a lot of different things. it doesn't de facto mean a massacre. as mentioned previously, destruction could be as simple as he convinced them to defect to the Dark side. that would certainly "destroy" Luke's efforts

all of the language regarding Kylo Ren in the VD is very carefully chosen and much of it is double-edged to prevent spoilers but not betray who he really is. it talks about conflict, his past, his isolation. people still went into the theatre thinking he was going to be Dath Vader 2.0 and were disappointed at his conflict, his past, and his isolation.

too many assumptions based on very little information.

 

....

But Leia's words to Han are : "I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both." you are brushing it off too quickly I would say and putting an interpretation of your own that is not supported by the dialogue...What the dialogue clearly says is I lost both of you when I sent Ben away. I doubt the general audience follows Hidalgo, right? The lines in the movie are the canon we should be working with, then novelization. I would take Hidalgo's tweets more carefully as he might be giving us the old Kenobi "from a certain point of view"..Also, we really still don't know for a fact that during Bloodlines Han and Leia are together if I'm not mistaken, right? In May we will know. But now this is all speculation.

I disagree with you about Rey being Luke's daughter if the timeline you suggest is correct, precisely because if she is left on Jakku many years before the events at the academy (which according to your suggested timeline happened 6-5 years before TFA) the TBTP will have to do even more retconning to explain things, don't you think?! I don't see how this will be explained away and it makes no sense to make it as complicated as something in the lines you suggested...it's just too convoluted. At least at this point.

If Rey's being left on Jakku and the events at Luke's "academy" are not connected or rather did not happen at the same time (which is what Hidalgo has suggested) , imo the likelihood of Rey being a Skywalker (Luke or Leia's daughter) really drops dramatically...

Hm.That doesn't convincingly explain the wording from the novel I'm afraid...

But at this point all of us are speculating.
I really want to know the timeline of events and the most important pieces of the puzzle - who and why left Rey on Jakku and never came back and what happened to Ben Solo.

I completely agree with @FN-3263827. What the VD says is that he is known as a Jedi Killer. I would be very careful to take that for a fact. In fact all the dialogue in the movie never really said he killed anybody, people are just assuming he did...which I think is premature jumping to conclusions...

We really still don't know what happened. I think the big reveal (or one part of it) in ep. 8 will be about that...

It has been confirmed that the Luke "academy" scene and the "rain scene with the Knights of Ren" are two separate events.

If the old leaked shooting schedule list is valid, the rain scene is Kylo looking for/getting Anakin's saber...which was in turn stolen from him by Maz...(however Maz's line in the movie "I've had it for ages" doesn't make any sense to me, since if Kylo did possess the saber for a bit, and has gotten it from someone else (as is implied), I imagine not so long time ago, the saber could not really have been in Maz's possession "for ages"...Especially for someone who has lived a 1000 years, a few years should not constitute "ages"...but this could be a script error of inaccurate expression...)

 

this might have been changed in rewrites, though interestingly, he is holding something in his hand in that rain scene and someone did suggest it was a lightsaber, but they may have been tainted by reading that shooting schedule for all i know. i look at the object in his hand and i don't see the blue lightsaber. but he is holding something. if there was any possibility this was the case, it would definitely explain how he knows the lightsaber ("That lightsaber: it belongs to me."), though i calked it up to his being able to "feel" it the same way Rey did.

and there's no reconciling any of this with Maz's statement, unless he tried to take it and she somehow got it back? eh.

i really hesitate to introduce yet more speculation / rumors / hidalgo into the mix. we have the film and we have the canon pieces that accompany it. everything outside of that is basically hearsay.

 

But there is other support for this. In the Visual Dictionary, it says Han was a family man and husband to a New Republic politician until a "profound tragedy" upended his life. That would indicate he didn't leave until after the tragedy of Ben going dark and betrayed the Jedi Academy. Han also says" We both had to deal with "it"" - it referring to Ben going Dark and the Jedi Massacre. I agree it is not completely clear in the film when he left, but the official sources clearly paint a picture of him not leaving until after the Jedi Massacre occurred. This also supports the line "Every time you looked at me you saw him", because that line doesn't make that much sense if Ben hadn't gone Dark yet. I think Leia just sees sending Ben away as the beginning of when it all went wrong, which is why she says "that's when I lost him, that's when I lost you both". Ben probably didn't go dark for a few years after he was sent away, so Leia didn't literally lose Ben then either.

In the leaked outline, Han and Leia drop Ben off to be trained at his Uncle Luke's together, so they were still together.

Yeah, the general audience doesn't follow Hidalgo but if we as fans are interested in the official continuity he knows the actual timeline of what happened and has been a resource in clarifying a lot of timeline questions.

All we know about Bloodlines is that there are some "cute Han/Leia scenes" in it. To me, that would indicate this is before their break up, since I don't think they would be having happy scenes after they find out what happened to their son.

I have no idea how they will explain it, we just have to trust the filmmakers that they know what they're doing. All we know for sure is that Rey was left on Jakku several years before the Jedi Massacre occurred.

Agreed, but I think JJ Abrams/Kasdan have a different timeline than Pablo Hidalgo and the official continuity guys at LFL. For example, JJ says TFA takes place 34 years after ROTJ, Pablo says 30. So I think JJ/Kasdan pictured the Jedi Academy has having occurred longer ago than what the official continuity people have decided it to be.

"Betrayal" to me doesn't mean he turned them to the Dark Side, I would interpret that that he was the one who murdered them. "Responsible for destruction" at least means he had a hand in it. It is very vague in the movie, but the official sources info seems pretty clear on it.

They could do a surprise and say it was someone else, but that would seem to be an odd filmmaking choice to build up Kylo Ren as the villain and then say some other Dark Side user who we've never heard of before was actually the one who committed the Jedi Massacre. *shrug* I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would seem an odd narrative choice IMO.

 

My thoughts as well! Especially since most people would have not really read even the novelization, basically the only solid canon for the general audience should be the movie.
But, us, we want more. We need answers. And we need them now. Not after two years. That's why we are here...

 

hahaha ~ isn't that the truth? i'm okay with not knowing the answers, to be honest (and if some of this stuff is never answered, that's fine too). but i do like to talk about things anyway.

 

I actually do want answers. Maybe not to all tiny details but to the major questions I do. (For instance it doesn't matter to me to find out how Kylo knew that's Anakin's lightsaber. If this is never explained, I'm fine with it completely.)

And actually I don't mind knowing the whole script before seeing ep. 8 either. (As was the case with TFA where I knew exactly what will happen in details due to the leaks...). On one hand I do want to be surprised, but also 2 years is too damn long, and some questions are just killing me not knowing their answers for so long...That's why, for the first time in my life I'm on forums. Quite non-typical of me actually...And speculating is quite fun I must admit. It will be interesting to see after we see ep. 8 (and 9) how much of the speculation was accurate...I'm a religion scholar, so looking for clues is rather fun...

 

Han and Leia's scenes in Bloodline might be flashbacks

 

This is brilliant. The best theory I've read so far.