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Han Solo's sacrifice and its repercussions for the ST

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Obi-Wan Solo, Apr 1, 2016.

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Han Solo's death as related to his son's fate

  1. Han Solo's sacrifice will have a profound impact on his son and it will be what ultimately saves him

    29 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. Murdering Han sealed Ben Solo's fate and he is forever lost to the dark side - Han died tragically

    9 vote(s)
    23.7%
  1. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    The death of Han Solo by the hand of his son Ben is undoubtedly the pivotal scene in The Force Awakens.

    will you help me1.gif
    yes anything1.gif

    And it is the scene that has fans divided as to how they feel about Kylo Ren, who was revealed to be the son of our OT heroes Han and Leia and the grandson of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.

    Not a few fans feel that Kylo/Ben is irredeemable and that killing his father has sealed his fate and he has completely turned to the dark side, and that from that point on there is no turning back, while another group of fans, believes that Kylo/Ben's pull to the light is not at all over and not all hope is lost and that he will eventually be redeemed.

    Since the film's release in mid-December, on SW forums there is an ongoing and very heated debate as to can Kylo Ren/Ben Solo be redeemed or not, splitting fans in two.

    The fact is, Han's last gesture before he falls is to lovingly touch his son's cheek. It is a gesture of love and forgiveness.
    Han forgave his son already and that is very meaningful.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Both in the novelization and the script, and of course from what we see in Adam Driver's great performance, we learn that Kylo/Ben was weakened and horrified by the act of killing his father.
    [​IMG]

    The thing is then, as I realised, the question should not be asked if Kylo Ren/Ben Solo can/should/will be redeemed or not, but the question fans should pose themselves should be -

    Is Han's death a tragedy and his death ultimately meaningless and painfully tragic end to Han Solo's legacy and serving only the goal of making Kylo Ren an irredeemable evil monster?
    i.e.
    Kylo Ren is irredeemable and will/should/must die by IX - ultimately very pessimistic outcome


    OR

    Is Han's death a heroic sacrifice that will eventually serve a greater purpose and help bring his and Leia's son back and save him?
    i.e.
    Ben Solo will be redeemed and possibly even survive - uplifting optimistic outcome

    The emotional response of the shock of losing a favourite character, seems to make a certain number of fans fail to realise that if they decide to sentence Han's son to death and deny his possible redemption they are simultaneously denying their favourite character a satisfying hero's arc.

    It basically boils to this. Do you believe that Han's death was for nothing, that his death serves only to make his and Leia's son a monster and their love a tragedy, or do you chose to see Han's death as a hero's sacrifice that will have important repercussions to the outcome of things?

    Han's death can only be meaningful and heroic if it manages to turn things around. Leia says to Han - "We can still save our son, me and you. There is still light in him, I know it."

    This of course is so utterly reminiscent of what Luke felt towards his father and ultimately t
    he SW saga is a saga of redemption and essentially has been about family relationships and legacy and the relationship between father and son. Kylo is part of that legacy and his fate is a crucial part of not only one movie, not just this sequel trilogy, but in fact of all 9 movies combined.

    It is no coincidence that Han's death in EP7 is reminiscent of Ben Kenobi's deliberate choice to sacrifice himself in EP4. The very fact that Han and Leia named their son Ben is also a telling sign.
    Here is a very interesting excerpt from the new retelling novelization of ANH

    [​IMG]

    I chose to believe that Han did exactly that - made a "selfless act of courage" that will make his death a hero's sacrifice and help his son be saved.

    So I made this thread by asking the provocative question, not will/should/can Kylo Ren/Ben Solo be redeemed, but instead asking us to pose ourselves a different question - is Han's death meaningful and heroic or is it tragic and depressing?

    So which one do you chose?



    EDIT: and also feel free to add your thoughts...
     
    #1 Obi-Wan Solo, Apr 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
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  2. FN-3263827

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    i'm firmly on the side of Han's death must have more meaning than merely a tragic end.
    the very nature of the word "sacrifice" (which has been used to describe his act throughout the production) necessarily indicates that the act has meaning.
    and dramaturgically meaning is action, not emotion/feeling. some action has to come of the sacrifice.

    we know Kylo Ren didn't make it to the deep Dark side. so where exactly is he?

    crazy angry enough to chase Finn and Rey out into the snow. maybe even crazy angry enough to kill them (until Rey calls the saber).
    and then the fight kinda goes outta him.

    when he fights Finn (and even when he Force-tosses Rey), he's trying so hard to be mwahahaha evil.
    that's why he's pounding on his wound (get angry! get angry!).
    notice he quits doing it once Finn is down and Rey gets the saber.

    so now what?
    Hux drags him back to Snokie-poke for a humiliation and/or punishment he won't soon forget?
    does he continue to try to pretend to be mwhahaha evil? does he do worse and worse things to try to "prove" it?

    in one fantastic variation in my head for episode viii, Kylo Ren just shows up--on Ahch-To, at the Resistance base (wherever) at the beginning, asking for (and being granted) sanctuary.
    i know that ain't going to happen, but i wish for it anyway because whatever is in store for him in viii isn't going to be pretty.

    Screen Shot 2016-04-01 at 7.00.01 PM.png

    Han Solo, beloved by so many, loved and died for his son. i absolutely choose to honor him by fighting for Ben too.
     
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  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Ya kno, whatever the loveliest ion says, I don't think that Han truly sacrificed himself. He was shocked by the saber and was scared and all.
     
  4. FN-3263827

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    ah, c'mon Astro. he knew what was going to happen on that bridge. it's obvious he knew.
    he had one brief moment of hope that it actually might not end with him dead, but he knew from the moment Leia asked him to try.
     
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  5. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    That's the thing. Harrison Ford also talks about how he wanted Han Solo to sacrifice himself, using that very word.

    I was thinking of making this thread for a while, but yesterday as I was watching the Collider Jedi Council weekly vlog on Youtube and got absolutely astounded that from all those people in the studio claiming to be Star Wars fans and sort of claiming to be not just fans but informed experts and having a weekly audience who they influence with their "analysis" (which I must say doesn't impress me) and views, only one person who was a guest yesterday (at the vlog's end when there was a question about Kylo Ren's redemption) dared to say that he thinks that Kylo Ren will be redeemed. His opinion however was not shared by the rest of those guys who were so sure in saying there is no doubt that Kylo is irredeemable for killing Han, that I gasped.
    How is it possible for someone to be so shortsighted?

    I think killing Han was the worst we will see him do, but I don't see him going back to give himself up. Remember, he said, "It's too late" even before he killed Han. Right now he has really cornered himself into an even smaller corner, and he is probably terrified.
    And a terrified person does reckless things, so I see him doing something reckless again and then in the process having a realization that something is not right.
    Also the conversation with Han is going to haunt him. Maybe he will have dreams, a vision about it...

    And Leia is not going to give up on him I think...She will try to speak to him if their paths cross and they will...

    I think his redemption will (and dare I say should) be with action. He will actively change the course of things and just as with actions he cornered himself as we found him, he will have to through acts change the way things are...Maybe he will get encouragement and help?
    I wonder if Luke will be like Yoda and Obi-Wan training Rey and urging her to confront him, or will try to plead Ben Solo's case and enlist her in saving him...
    We'll see about that.

    That's the thing. The only way they can honour Han Solo (and Harrison Ford) is by making Han's sacrifice having the weight, "gravitas" (as Ford keeps saying in all his recent interviews) and the meaningful impact he wanted. He will be a hero and his character arc would have had the greatest growth and most satisfying completion - from a selfish mercenary to a Rebellion hero, back to smuggler, to someone who has managed to be a hero and save the galaxy through saving his son.

    Yes, he was shocked by the pain of the blade piercing him. It must have hurt, but he knew it is coming, in fact I'm sure he did. And I think in VIII we will see perhaps another angle of what happened...
     
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  6. FN-3263827

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    i'm sad for these people. i hope in their hearts they secretly wish for a redemption even if they are too cowardly to admit it ~ hahaha

    i dunno ~ i'm pretty nervous for how he's going to compensate" for his shitastic performance in TFA.

    oh absolutely. i want him to give up quietly, but i know it's never going to happen that way. they're going to have to throw him in a sack like a wild animal if they're even going to have a chance at reasoning with him.

    i wonder if whatever Snoke does to punish him is going to trigger Han's warning: that Snoke intends to crush him. coupled with whatever Snoke's plans are for Rey, he's probably going to feel imperiled (and therefore be even more dangerous).

    she didn't give up on him after whatever it was he did to Luke, nor after he killed Lor San Tekka. she'll keep trying. i really want them to face eachother before the end of viii. if they make us wait until ix, i'll expire.

    i don't know what i think. i think he's not going to be a willing participant in the process at first. that it's going to take an outsider (Rey) to reach him. that something will precipitate a deep enough level of trust between the two of them for him to allow himself to be vulnerable (and therefore open dialogue). i suspect he'll occupy a very grey area ~ he's not just going Dark to Light overnight.

    maybe Han failed as a father ~ failed for years even.
    but he was there in the end and that's what counts.
    he asked for and gave forgiveness (like the book says).
    and hopefully Ben will reflect on this and see that he wasn't abandoned.
    that his family tried to rescue him ~ is trying to rescue him.

    do tell? you think there's more to the moment than we saw?
     
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  7. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    yes, I do.

    Here is what I found yesterday which is from the documentary that shows that my instinct to think there is more to the scene on the bridge is probably not entirely off the mark.

    Here is Harrison Ford and Adam Driver rehearsing the positions of their hands for the scene on the bridge. Notice how Han's hand is at the saber, then moves towards Kylo's shoulder to steady himself, and how Kylo holds him as well..
    Unfortunately I don't have a bigger and better image from the movie, but even with this it is clear that Han's hand is still at the hilt of Kylo's saber and that means he was aware that the saber is pointing at himself. Did Kylo ignite it. I think he most probably did. But there is something we are not shown in TFA that happened between Kylo asking Han for help, then handing him the weapon and then saying "Thank you".

    The minimum is Han knew what is coming. How much did he help is up for questioning, but he knew...and he was determined to go through with it. I think because of the position of the switch, Kylo is the one who ignited the saber, but it was Han who turned the saber to face towards himself.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Here is the same moment in the movie as the one they have rehearsed. You can clearly see the position of Han's hand.

    [​IMG]

    While Han is pierced by the laser quite naturally he is shocked by the pain, I'm sure expecting it or not, he will be and it is probably excruciatingly painful.

    But after the initial shock this is the look he gives his son, as he touches his son's cheek as his last act.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I think in VIII we will see this scene again in some way, but this time the position of the hands on the saber will be shown...
     
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  8. FN-3263827

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    the only thing that has ever bothered me about the choreography in this scene is that Ren Ben does the deed with his left hand ~ and that strikes me as an unnatural thing. he has the saber in the "kendo" surrender with his palms up and it's Han's hand that's palm down over the top.

    i agree Ren Ben ignites the saber. i agree there's a chance he's trying to decide between killing Han or killing himself (i've always believed that).

    i still think his fear and his natural self-preservation instinct kicks in and he chooses to kill Han.
    whatever the position of their hands, etc., he thrusts the blade twice (the practice .gif you posted is the second thrust).
    Han's right (dominant) arm is down (you can see this in the practice run and on the film clip), which means he would have had to maneuver the saber toward him at the precise moment Ren Ben flips the switch: knowing his son is going to do it, and without bothering to ensure a clean kill by using both hands.

    this is the shot literally one frame before the saber ignites:
    Screen Shot 2016-04-01 at 9.01.14 PM.png
    (click on the picture to make it bigger)

    Han's hand is not really in a good position to turn the saber. it's at the bottom of the shaft, so he would have to push outward from the wrist (the natural position to push would be with the palm), whereas Ren Ben's hand is on the top (fingers on the trigger button).
    so, yes, Han definitely does not ignite it, but i think it's also hard to argue he's controlling it.

    but i will concede three things for the sake of keeping hope afloat:
    • the use of their non-dominant hands in the scene could just be a matter of blocking. the shot is filmed from Han's right side, so his arm is down so as not to obscure the action; OR there is something important about the fact that Ren Ben kills him left-handed.
    • the "practice" scene is choreographed without using a saber hilt (why would they do that? that's weird); cause for suspicion?
    • the whole thing is gooftah (a highly technical term, i assure you). their hands are nowhere near the position we see them in just prior (Ren Ben's two hands palms up, Han's right hand palm down).
    i can't argue that the scene isn't filmed weirdly.
    i don't think there's more to it than that (and i don't think there needs to be, either).
    all that said, i'm all for hoping there's more to it if it'll help other people see the moment in a different (less negative) light.

    p.s. Adam Driver looks like he's chewing gum in that greenscreen shot ~ hahaha (i know he's not, but it's funny anyway).
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 2, 2016 ---
    here is the position of the hands prior to the ignition: (sorry, i didn't adjust the contrast, but i think they're pretty clear; clickie for biggie)

    Screen Shot 2016-04-01 at 9.29.37 PM.png Screen Shot 2016-04-01 at 9.30.44 PM.png

    i've watched the scene frame by frame and when the saber ignites, Ren pushes it into Han and Han's hand is dragged with it.
    but the driving action is definitely coming from Ren. sure, they could pull a switch on us with some reveal later but here's the thing:

    i feel like the fact that Ren didn't go full Dark shouldn't be because he was robbed of the choice to kill his father somehow.
    i think Ren didn't go full Dark because deep down somewhere he doesn't want to.
    and i think that's the one piece of true self-actualizing agency he's got in the whole film.
    and maybe we shouldn't take that away from him, because it's the way back.

    more importantly, Han laid down his life to be taken. Ben asks him to help him and Han says yes, anything.
    Ben isn't asking will you die for me? he's asking will you let me kill you? and i think there's an important distinction in that.

    Han has failed him. He has disappointed him.
    why would Han now do, in his final moment, yet another thing to demonstrate that he's not fully committed to whatever it is Ben asks for?

    it's an effed-up thing, i know.

    but i said in another thread that in this moment Han is being the father Ben needs (always needed), precisely by letting his son have his way with him--honoring/fulfilling the promise he just made not two seconds before: yes, anything.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 2, 2016 ---
    okay one more thing (because i'm not being very articulate ~ hahaha):

    i get what you're saying, @Obi-Wan Solo: that we're talking about the nuance of Han turning the saber (not doing the actual action), but i think if there's a nuance of action to remark on it's that Han drops his dominant hand (he's no longer fighting Ren for control), and resigns himself to be killed. the rest is all Ren.

    Ren Ben says he doesn't know if he has the strength to do it.
    i think so long as Han fights him on the saber, he can't do it.
    the "thank you" is gratitude for honoring his promise by letting go.
     
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  9. Automatic

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    Yes.
    TFA dropped some hints at things to come that I thought were so obvious I can't believe other people don't see them... but there are people on the other side of the fence saying the same thing. Y'know?
    Interesting idea! I can't decide. My first assumption was that Ren will go much farther down the dark path before he starts to come back. But then I think: this guy is gonna be such a WRECK -- and it could just be my wishful thinking / headcanon -- I imagine him needing something real to latch onto, something true....

    ...like his new connection with Rey. It's obvious that he'll be obsessed with finding her (right? isn't it?), both in his official capacity and for personal reasons (look at the *literal* mark she left on him! how could he tolerate it?!) She's his beacon. Even if he's still recoiling from the Light, I wonder if he won't get with Snoke's program at all, but just continue to recklessly pursue his own interests (her). In which case, yes, killing Han could be his worst and pivotal moment. Yeah, neat idea.
    Hahahaha... Awesome. Although again, I wonder if maybe it couldn't be the other way around?? Rey for one, the last time we saw her, wanted nothing to do with him. She HATES him. He might have to go to great lengths to win her trust.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 2, 2016 ---
    I saw this moment differently - and help me out if I'm missing something, because I haven't read the screenplay or novel.
    I saw Ren presenting the lightsaber as if to say 'take this thing away before I do any more damage with it.' And Han agrees to. But Ren can't actually let it go (and then he makes his choice). I'm sure Han knows the risk he's taking, but I don't think he's agreeing to be killed. I think he believes, for a moment, that Ben will relinquish his weapon and come home.
     
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  10. Choose Light

    Choose Light Jedi General

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    I just want to add my little two cents to this: Once Leia asks Han to try to reach their son as his father, it's like a death knell for Han. Here's an except from a little later the script:

    The "They both know there's a good chance he won't make it back" could just mean that it's a dangerous mission...but since Starkiller base is aiming at the Resistance base, there might not be anything for him to come back to. My personal take is that Han knows perfectly well what risk he's taking in trying to reach Ben. He's just not asking the odds until he actually does it.

    As far as the word "sacrifice"--I don't think Han went in with the idea that he was going to nobly give up his life for the greater good. I think in his case, "sacrifice" means the willingness to do whatever it took, even losing his life, on the chance that Ben might come back to the Light.
     
    #10 Choose Light, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
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  11. FN-3263827

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    i totally agree Rey will need convincing.
    but i also think she's in a much better position to be convinced (she's safe, she has support, and it's the people who are her new family who will be asking her to make this sacrifice of her anger).
    again, i don't think it will come easy (and probably not fully until ix), but i believe she'll get there. the galaxy is counting on her!

    i confess i get really waffly about this moment (which is why it's hard for me to articulate).
    what it comes down to for me is that Ben is really exposed in the moment. he is truly who/what he is.
    he's fearful, weak, and completely self-absorbed (for lack of a better expression). at worst he is a coward.
    he's only thinking about his pain and the only thing that can stop his pain is to make a final and absolute choice.
    Snoke has convinced him that Han has to die if he's to stay in Snoke's good graces.
    He wants to come home, but he doesn't think it will solve anything (it's too late).
    He can't admit his weakness. He doesn't trust his father. Starkiller is minutes away from killing his mother.

    when he says he knows what he has to do, he's absolutely referring to killing Han.
    and yet, i totally agree that there's a part of him that genuinely wants to surrender. but he can't.
    so i totally agree with you: he's halfway there to giving up, and Han has a moment of hope that he will.

    but then you can see the moment when he refuses to let go, and then pulls the saber back toward himself.
    Han could have fought him, but he doesn't. he lets go.
    he lets Ren make his choice, already knowing what that choice is.

    and i'm guessing that Han did it in the hope that it will bring an end to his son's pain one way or another, which is where he failed as a father.
    and so here completes his own atonement: i abandoned you, but i came back; i did not protect you, but now i lay down my life for your well-being; i did not fulfill my obligations, but now i do).

    anyway, this is how i make sense of it all and reconcile the paradox of it.
    maybe we learn something more happened in this moment.
    but if we don't, i guess we each have to find peace with it in our own way.
     
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  12. Choose Light

    Choose Light Jedi General

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    I have to ask this question:

    If you think that Kylo is irredeemable/unforgiveable because he murdered Han, please explain why. I am really interested in hearing your reasons.

    One vibe I am getting when I hear people talk about Kylo being unforgivable is that forgiveness is weak. That if you personally forgive someone of a crime against you, then you are saying that the crime really wasn't all that bad.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong!
     
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  13. Obi-Wan Solo

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    Here is something else that makes me believe that Han sacrificed himself, and he did so willingly and knowingly and that his sacrifice will have the same powerful and meaningful impact as that of Obi-Wan and will be the one that will guide his son back to the Light.

    Firstly is the novelization excerpt from the new retelling of ANH which I quoted where Han thinks about Ben Kenobi's sacrifice and wondered if he himself can be in a position to make a similar sacrifice (see my original post). To me the scene on the bridge between Han and his son is exactly that, a moment of a willing sacrifice.
    Then two days ago having the book and looking through it, I came across this image with the caption relevant to Obi-Wan in Star Wars (aka ANH) which for some reason is in the Art of The Force Awakens, on p. 102 there is a concept design and a caption that goes with it (for the pre-production 2013 time for TFA) that really struck me as absolutely relevant to what I think happened between Han and Kylo.

    The concept art is supposed to be depicting Obi-Wan and Vader encounter on the Death Star it seems, however as we know this is not what the scene was in the original movie. They did not confront each other on a bridge. But the caption is even more interesting. It goes as this:

    Gun Bridge Fight “Ultimately, for Obi-Wan Kenobi, halfway through Star Wars, to realize that if he sacrifices himself and makes his own death of his making as much as the person who’s causing his death, he’s making himself more powerful than anybody can imagine. And it’s witnessed by a third person, that young man. It’s been in front of everybody for all these years. But you don’t see Obi-Wan Kenobi everywhere. You see Darth Vader, you see Yoda, and you see Luke. But Obi-Wan’s the one who made it all happen.” [Rick] Carter

    phone 009.jpg
    The above image from p. 102 which has the caption and comment by Rick Carter about Obi-Wan is almost identical to the later production (July 2014) concept art that they made for Han and Kylo on the bridge on Starkiller Base found on p. 220-221 in "The Art of..." Click on Thumbnail to see whole page. phone 007.jpg

    Han faces Ben.jpg
    The visual parallel between the two concept art pictures is undoubtedly striking, this coupled with the novelization excerpt in ANH that I quoted in my original post, also the fact that Han and Leia named their son Ben are all to me pointing very clearly to the interpretation that as much as Han's death was of Kylo's making, it is also of Han's making, just as the above quote from Rick Carter says about Obi-Wan. (One valid and obvious question is why are they considering/discussing Obi-Wan's sacrifice in the pre-production of TFA?! It surely has significance I would say.)

    While there is a parallel of Rey witnessing her mentor being killed that puts her visually seemingly in the position of Luke in ANH, but here the one who is guided is actually Kylo. Rey witnessing this is only going to be important when she has to reconcile who Kylo/Ben is and their own future (and inevitable) confrontation.

    But the situation is different also because there was no danger for the others. While Obi-Wan engaged Vader to stall and allow Luke, Han and Leia to escape, in the TFA Han was not stalling so that they escape. The detonators were placed, they were all free to go back to the Falcon and go. They were not really in danger and Kylo was actually walking away. (Which can also be interpreted as a deliberate act of wanting to avoid facing his father on purpose).
    Han chose to stop him and speak with his son. And who knows how long it has been since they last saw each other? Years?

    For me, just as Carter speaks about Obi-Wan being the main motivator behind events, in Kylo's case it will be Han's sacrifice that will motivate him to turn back.
    (And I also have the feeling Obi-Wan will continue to be involved somehow in another way, but that's another topic...)

    So, it seems to me, based on all of this, that instead of what a number of people see in that scene - the final push of Kylo to the dark side from where there is no coming back, instead to me that scene reads as basically the beginning of his redemption arc. Not only is Kylo not the mustache twirling villain, or the evil cool sith ala Darth Maul (which I think everyone agrees upon) with the cool design that sells toys, but he is not going to become the evil dark irredeemable evil antagonist which to my surprise many people want him to be.
    It really baffles me that the same people who say that killing Han is unforgivable, at the same time wish Han and Leia's son to be an evil monster. There seems to be a logical paradox there - you cannot forgive Han's death becuase that's a beloved legacy character and that's why you wish Han's legacy and the result of Han and Leia's love to be a failure??? How is that even logical?!

    The opposite should be true. Because you love Han (and Leia) and you value and care about their legacy you must and should root for and wish that their son is redeemed and survives. I think it is clearly telegraphed, but for some reason some people's logic is shortcircuiting on that important point. For now at least.
     
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  14. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras Jedi General
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    First of GREAT THREAD that will last until ESP IX .

    Second this post is going to get messy & a kind of go all over the place because for me nothing is set in stone. Could Ben be forgive for what he has done so far (& do not forget we don't know exactly what he has & has not done in the past) yes by certain characters Leia absolutely he is her son so of course she will forgive him Luke probably depending exactly what went down between him & Ben, Finn & Rey that going to be complicated & certainly not guaranteed though Rey will probably have the harder time given how personally the interaction got. Poe I don't see him forgiving Ben that is if he finds out who he really is as he has first hand experience of Ben darker side The execution of all the Villagers (some of whom where unarmed) at the start of TFA. Anyone outside the inner core of character again unlikely that is if they find out the connection between Ben & Kylo Ren.

    Which brings us to another question what does the rest of the Resistance & new republic think happened to Ben but that is probably for another thread

    So personally I think Ben can be Redeemed which is different to Forgiven as otherwise there is no cost to his actions but I do not think even then his life is going to be easy my best case ending for him would be in exile on Luke's planet spending his day in meditation. Worst case he is captured & tried by the new Galactic Government & then Imprisoned.

    As a side note what ever Ben ending Leia politically career is finished it was hard being the daughter of Darth Vader but now she will also be the mother of Kylo Ren so whatever Ben`s future is both Leia & Luke will have to bear some of that cost (That is if they make it out of the trilogy alive)
     
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  15. Choose Light

    Choose Light Jedi General

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    Hi, @Automatic--I'm glad you haven't been deterred by getting your first neutral rating! :) People can get feisty about romance/their ships.

    I lean toward what you say here (FYI I don't think the screenplay adds much to the discussion, and definitely has nothing to add in terms of the amazing subtleties of the physical acting). But like @FN-3263827, I waffle and find it hard to articulate what I think about the actual moments leading up to Han's death. Mostly because I perceive it almost entirely in terms of emotions, which on this scale are very hard to pin down into mere words.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---
    I never thought of this reason behind the "thank you"--what a great thought!
     
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  16. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    It did seem to me that Kylo Ren/Ben was walking away and seemed to know his father was close. I always believed, even the first time watching, that he never really wanted to kill his father, but had to because he showed up there. There was that hesitation on both sides, Han could have walked away and not called out to him, but could he do that and have no regrets. It was a choice he made. I agree, that maybe for a second or two, Han thought he was going to get to walk away, but he was gone when he went out on that bridge and called out to him. I always think of the point he is gone though when he is hugging Leia before he leaves for Starkiller Base.
     
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  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    there's a slight (ever so slight) possibility that Poe could have known Ben when they were very young. Poe's mother and Leia were close-ish (?).
    also, Poe himself is apparently very fond of/close to Leia, so even if he didn't know Ben, there's a chance he knows who Kylo Ren is (and there's no way he didn't come back from Jakku and tell Leia he was brain-tortured). but frankly, he strikes me as the most easy-going of the bunch.
    i can actually see him being the least skittish about extending an olive branch.
    if Rey is blood-related, she'll likely forgive as a matter of family.
    if she's not, she won't be able to resist his Solo charm and the two will skip off into the twin sunset hand-in-hand exchanging snarky quips (mostly kidding).
    Finn...well poor Finn. i suspect he'll be the hard sell of the three ~ hahaha.

    Bloodline seems to be telling the story of the end of Leia's political aspirations (and that being related to the revelation that Vader is her father).
    but you're right: being sandwiched between two infamous Dark siders, even if Ben comes back to the Light, could be rough for all the Skywalkers.

    it's really all i can come up with. Han could have made the confrontation a lot harder for him, but he didn't.
    i still think: screw sacrifice, Han, just grab the kid and run ~ hahaha (if only).
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---
    i feel like the Millennium Falcon scene so supports this. he was content to ignore the whole thing until Han showed up.
    he even walked away from Han on Takodana.
     
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  18. Choose Light

    Choose Light Jedi General

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    The first time I saw TFA, I was sure Han was going to grab the lightsaber out of Kylo's hand and chuck it into the abyss. I guess the next step would have been the fireman's carry. (Dang it, Chewy, where are you when you're needed?) :D

    Yes, I agree that the Falcon scene tells us so much about Kylo...but I guess we just couldn't handle having so much empathy for him and it had to be cut for our own good. :rolleyes:
     
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  19. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    In the novelization there was something that would suggest that Kylo deliberately headed away. First when he entered with the stormtroopers he deliberately misdirects them to go up, waits for them to go out of sight and then he goes the opposite way downwards.

    Then there is the part that he senses where exactly Han was (behind a specific column) and heads there, and then after that he hesitates and starts to walk away. (I should look for the exact quotes and put them here...)

    So yes, I think he is walking away deliberately trying to avoid the encounter and Han also thinks he can go away now and considers that the chances of going out undetected and rejoining the others, but then he remembers Leia's request "a request that wouldn't go away, he knew. It would never go away."

    Kylo knew that he was given a task by Snoke that was a test that he had to pass and his words to his father were exactly about that. He knew what he has to do, but is torn apart (and really doesn't want to do it)...When Han stops him calling out his name I think we can imagine the mental state that is...

    (I rewatched the movie on Thursday in a theater for the last time and I was listening for Adam's voice when Snoke told him that the droid is on board of the MF with his father when he says "He means nothing to me". His tone and feelings actually betrayed otherwise...)

    And now that we have seen the deleted scene with Kylo on the Falcon it is yet another proof of the turmoil he feels that his father is on SKB and that their meeting is probably imminent...
     
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  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i love how much Abrams & co returned to the McQuarrie designs.

    and i have to say: in terms of compare/contrast between Obi-Wan and Han, i love how sorta understated Han's gesture is in this. Obi-Wan kinda did this grand dramatic thing to put Luke on the path and he did it full cognizant of his his own wisdom--even nobility, i think.
    Han is just a father willing to anything to save his child.
     
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