Han Solo's sacrifice and its repercussions for the ST

Well after what he did to Han Solo, I wouldn't put it past Ben to literally BEG everyone that's not The First Order to save him and then turn around and murder them.

 

Astro, sometimes i have no idea what movie you watched ~ hahaha

 

what? I'm saying that because of the look/feel of Kylo after he killed his dad because he seemed to be begging to be saved but also refusing to be saved at the same time. At least from the way that I perceived it.

 

he didn't ask Han to show up. he certainly didn't beg Han to save him from the FO and then turn on him.

you could even argue that Kylo Ren has no idea he needs saving from the First Order or why anybody would think he does.
and the part of him that is Ben that does want to be saved isn't going around begging for it.

 

I don't think it's semantics...
The choice to turn back from the darkside thus initiating his redemption is Ben's/Kylo's alone...it's a choice he will have to repeat every freaking day of his life, or better yet every moment that he remembers what he did...killing his father? Just that fact alone will torment him constantly...it's not like you stop feeling the guilt for sith you did after you decide you will be great and good now...it's not all sunshine and rainbows...it is a process....a constant strugle, a repetitive choice not to fall back...on the good days and specially on the bad...If he choose to change because of someone else to me that is like saying that someone else can make you happy...unfair to both you and that other person...someone else is responsible for your redemption?
Sure...you need a support system...but you don't redeem yourself for no one else....atonement..that's another thing...that you do for other people so that they recognize you are worthy again....
And I dunno...but If I wanna save my soul...it would be for the sake of my soul...not for the love of a man or a parrent and most certainly not for the fear of a punishment from some tribunal....

 

we're saying the same thing.

 

You're right, @Dark Cutie, it is a decision he will need to repeat over and over for himself. I'm saying, though, not that Ben would have to choose this for someone else, or in order to please someone else, but that someone else might help him get to the place where he can choose, and do it over and over and over again.

 

The thread on the Sun symbolism reminded me of this article I read around the time the movie came out (talk about spoiler!). http://www.tor.com/2016/04/01/han-solo-obit/

 

Lol, it seems like I am getting late to this party of vindicating Ben Solo even when he committed that "terrible act".

At first I wanted nothing to do with KYlo Ren, I wanted him dead and even when my immediate reaction was sort of mild - guess too much Game of Thrones and Valar Morghulis has affected me at a certain extent - the following days I was truly grieving for Han Solo and wanted his murderer to be punished. Even seeing a little piece of marketing was offensive.

BUT as days went by, I realised what you are saying is true. I do love Han and Leia enough and their legacy so I don't want his son to be lost.

In my headcanon, little Ben meets little Poe in Yavin, before Shara dies. (Still working on that fan-fic lol)

Well, at least Leia can expect her grandchildren to belong to the Light Side of the Force, as her and Luke did - seems the Dark Side skips a generation lol.

 

Same here. And from my point of view, I guess that is the beauty of this: it is such a crushing tragedy to have one of my favourite love stories to end up like this, and especially after the rushed treatment they gave in ROTJ to the fact that Leia was a Skywalker too. It was something I have continuously criticised but, at the same time it offers a great opportunity at the sequel, and one that crushes my heart every single time I think of this scene.

Agree. If Han was not able to come back home himself, I hope that one part of him does - his son.

Well, I guess he wasn't over Bespin yet lol.

Lol he knew from the time he had to wear those boots back in the Death Star!

Agree. I recall reading in "Bloodline" something about Leia telling Han who was her father and I recall Han was quite supportive with her. I mean, he could separate in some way his love for Leia from her origin - something she could not do anything to change - but obviously, when things went bad, that unacknowledged origin came to bite them back with their son.

At the end, my eyes were unsurprisingly watering and my soul was crushed. Why???

Here, something to spread the feeling:

 

What a tremendously excellent OP. Heck, this entire thread will carry on until the end of the sequel trilogy.

IMO, Han's death by the hands of his son means multiple things:

- The sacrifice of a father that will ultimately redeem his son (whether he survives IX or not);
- The evil act that tested Ben in order to fully become Kylo Ren, the villain this story needs (albeit not one dimensional. So, he becomes the monster who killed his father, who happens to be one of the most beloved characters of the saga, but the conflict within him will remain throughout the trilogy, I think);
- The life-changing event that Rey witnesses: the death of his mentor or, like Kylo tells her, "the father you never had" (or something along those words during the interrogation scene, I don't recall the exact phrasing, sorry for that);

So, I believe that there is really no contention here: as it happens with good storytelling, the layers of meaning and purpose in this specific moment produce multiple outcomes for the trilogy AND the saga as a whole.

My 2 cents.

 

Agree. It's not as if George Lucas wrote the books himself and then HBO made a TV show based on them... wait a second, wrong saga.

But actually "A Song of Ice and Fire" is a good example for this. The book readers might be right to be mad because "Game of Thrones" is based on the books; however, it is an adaptation and sanctioned by the author, so it's alright if they decided to change something.

For the Legends, it is as you said, it was never sanctioned by Lucas, though it helped to keep Star Wars alive in some sense; nevertheless it was never canon. There were a lot of inconsistencies between the books and the movies that I am glad in some way that the Story Group is trying to put it all together.

Agree. We might argue at least Ben was the one who helped in some sense to meet at all - Han and Leia.

--- Double Post Merged, May 27, 2016, Original Post Date: May 27, 2016 ---

Awwwww. Especially Leia's cheeks that would look chubbier with that buns' hairdo. I. Am. Not. Crying.

Hey, that reminded me of a dialogue between Luke and Leia in ANH:

Leia: What's wrong?
Luke: Oh, it's Han. I don't know, I thought he'd change his mind.
Leia: He's got to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him.
Luke: I only wish Ben was here.

(The mention of Ben freaked me out a little bit lol. But the point is that, quoting his mama, "he's got to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him")

 

Han chose to come back. and let's face it, part of what made him keep coming back was Leia.

just saying. hahaha!

 

From the "A New Hope: The Princess, The Scoundrel and The Farm Boy":

Han coughed against the smoke and fiery air as he and Chewie turned and ran up the hallway of cells. They nearly collided with Luke and-
It wasn't often that Han found himself caught off guard. But standing in front of him, big brown eyes blazing, face bright from the short run she'd just taken, dark hair falling out of ridiculous coils around her ears, was one of the loveliest women Han had ever seen.

So nothing but the truth you've said!

 

i can't remember if this was discussed.
i have a feeling it was touched on at some point, but this morning i saw someone had posted a bunch of .gifs and this particular juxtaposition struck me:




the way Han lays his hand on his son's face is almost exactly the path/shape of the scar that Rey gave him, even widening at the base/palm.
like she inadvertently permanently imprinted it.

or it's just a coincidence, but it's still fun to read into.

also, just a note: Ren Ben's eyes shy at the last second when Han is touching his face.
he's trying to look impassive, but he's already slipping.

 

Would Kylo try to save his mother if he has to? I know he did nothing to stop Hux preparing to fire at the resistance base. But imagine a situation with Snoke or Hux or Phasma torturing or trying to kill Leia right in front of him. Would he think of Han's sacrifice in such a situation? You knows..

 

Never noticed that before! Great find!

...When it comes to analazing gifs are superior to the movie!

 

i hope we never see Leia compromised that way, but it's interesting to speculate.
he made a vague attempt to prevent Hux from firing Starkiller, but it was pretty subtle and he didn't pursue it.

with one parent dead is Ren going to be less willing to kill the other (or see her killed?).
or would it be a way to put her (and himself) out of misery?
there's so much hurt there.