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Han Solo's sacrifice and its repercussions for the ST

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Obi-Wan Solo, Apr 1, 2016.

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Han Solo's death as related to his son's fate

  1. Han Solo's sacrifice will have a profound impact on his son and it will be what ultimately saves him

    29 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. Murdering Han sealed Ben Solo's fate and he is forever lost to the dark side - Han died tragically

    9 vote(s)
    23.7%
  1. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Well after what he did to Han Solo, I wouldn't put it past Ben to literally BEG everyone that's not The First Order to save him and then turn around and murder them.
     
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Astro, sometimes i have no idea what movie you watched ~ hahaha
     
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  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    what? I'm saying that because of the look/feel of Kylo after he killed his dad because he seemed to be begging to be saved but also refusing to be saved at the same time. At least from the way that I perceived it.
     
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    he didn't ask Han to show up. he certainly didn't beg Han to save him from the FO and then turn on him.

    you could even argue that Kylo Ren has no idea he needs saving from the First Order or why anybody would think he does.
    and the part of him that is Ben that does want to be saved isn't going around begging for it.
     
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  5. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    I don't think it's semantics...
    The choice to turn back from the darkside thus initiating his redemption is Ben's/Kylo's alone...it's a choice he will have to repeat every freaking day of his life, or better yet every moment that he remembers what he did...killing his father? Just that fact alone will torment him constantly...it's not like you stop feeling the guilt for sith you did after you decide you will be great and good now...it's not all sunshine and rainbows...it is a process....a constant strugle, a repetitive choice not to fall back...on the good days and specially on the bad...If he choose to change because of someone else to me that is like saying that someone else can make you happy...unfair to both you and that other person...someone else is responsible for your redemption?
    Sure...you need a support system...but you don't redeem yourself for no one else....atonement..that's another thing...that you do for other people so that they recognize you are worthy again....
    And I dunno...but If I wanna save my soul...it would be for the sake of my soul...not for the love of a man or a parrent and most certainly not for the fear of a punishment from some tribunal....
     
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  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    we're saying the same thing.
     
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  7. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    You're right, @Dark Cutie, it is a decision he will need to repeat over and over for himself. I'm saying, though, not that Ben would have to choose this for someone else, or in order to please someone else, but that someone else might help him get to the place where he can choose, and do it over and over and over again.
     
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  8. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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  9. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    Lol, it seems like I am getting late to this party of vindicating Ben Solo even when he committed that "terrible act".

    At first I wanted nothing to do with KYlo Ren, I wanted him dead and even when my immediate reaction was sort of mild - guess too much Game of Thrones and Valar Morghulis has affected me at a certain extent - the following days I was truly grieving for Han Solo and wanted his murderer to be punished. Even seeing a little piece of marketing was offensive.

    BUT as days went by, I realised what you are saying is true. I do love Han and Leia enough and their legacy so I don't want his son to be lost.

    In my headcanon, little Ben meets little Poe in Yavin, before Shara dies. (Still working on that fan-fic lol)

    Well, at least Leia can expect her grandchildren to belong to the Light Side of the Force, as her and Luke did - seems the Dark Side skips a generation lol.
     
    #89 PrincessLeiaCB3, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  10. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    Same here. And from my point of view, I guess that is the beauty of this: it is such a crushing tragedy to have one of my favourite love stories to end up like this, and especially after the rushed treatment they gave in ROTJ to the fact that Leia was a Skywalker too. It was something I have continuously criticised but, at the same time it offers a great opportunity at the sequel, and one that crushes my heart every single time I think of this scene.

    Agree. If Han was not able to come back home himself, I hope that one part of him does - his son.


    Well, I guess he wasn't over Bespin yet lol.

    112b392c2b05c2d054473ee7fa3e00d5.jpg

    Lol he knew from the time he had to wear those boots back in the Death Star!

    Agree. I recall reading in "Bloodline" something about Leia telling Han who was her father and I recall Han was quite supportive with her. I mean, he could separate in some way his love for Leia from her origin - something she could not do anything to change - but obviously, when things went bad, that unacknowledged origin came to bite them back with their son.

    At the end, my eyes were unsurprisingly watering and my soul was crushed. Why???

    Here, something to spread the feeling:

    this-touching-force-awakens-fan-art-will-show-you-kylo-ren-in-a-whole-new-light-water-c-962625.jpg
     
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  11. Qui-GON29

    Qui-GON29 Rebel Commander

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    What a tremendously excellent OP. Heck, this entire thread will carry on until the end of the sequel trilogy.

    IMO, Han's death by the hands of his son means multiple things:

    - The sacrifice of a father that will ultimately redeem his son (whether he survives IX or not);
    - The evil act that tested Ben in order to fully become Kylo Ren, the villain this story needs (albeit not one dimensional. So, he becomes the monster who killed his father, who happens to be one of the most beloved characters of the saga, but the conflict within him will remain throughout the trilogy, I think);
    - The life-changing event that Rey witnesses: the death of his mentor or, like Kylo tells her, "the father you never had" (or something along those words during the interrogation scene, I don't recall the exact phrasing, sorry for that);

    So, I believe that there is really no contention here: as it happens with good storytelling, the layers of meaning and purpose in this specific moment produce multiple outcomes for the trilogy AND the saga as a whole.

    My 2 cents.
     
    #91 Qui-GON29, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
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  12. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    Agree. It's not as if George Lucas wrote the books himself and then HBO made a TV show based on them... wait a second, wrong saga.

    But actually "A Song of Ice and Fire" is a good example for this. The book readers might be right to be mad because "Game of Thrones" is based on the books; however, it is an adaptation and sanctioned by the author, so it's alright if they decided to change something.

    For the Legends, it is as you said, it was never sanctioned by Lucas, though it helped to keep Star Wars alive in some sense; nevertheless it was never canon. There were a lot of inconsistencies between the books and the movies that I am glad in some way that the Story Group is trying to put it all together.

    Agree. We might argue at least Ben was the one who helped in some sense to meet at all - Han and Leia.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 27, 2016, Original Post Date: May 27, 2016 ---
    Awwwww. Especially Leia's cheeks that would look chubbier with that buns' hairdo. I. Am. Not. Crying.

    Hey, that reminded me of a dialogue between Luke and Leia in ANH:

    Leia: What's wrong?
    Luke: Oh, it's Han. I don't know, I thought he'd change his mind.
    Leia: He's got to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him.
    Luke: I only wish Ben was here.


    (The mention of Ben freaked me out a little bit lol. But the point is that, quoting his mama, "he's got to follow his own path, no one can choose it for him")
     
    #92 PrincessLeiaCB3, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Han chose to come back. and let's face it, part of what made him keep coming back was Leia.

    just saying. hahaha!
     
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  14. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    From the "A New Hope: The Princess, The Scoundrel and The Farm Boy":

    Han coughed against the smoke and fiery air as he and Chewie turned and ran up the hallway of cells. They nearly collided with Luke and-
    It wasn't often that Han found himself caught off guard. But standing in front of him, big brown eyes blazing, face bright from the short run she'd just taken, dark hair falling out of ridiculous coils around her ears, was one of the loveliest women Han had ever seen.


    So nothing but the truth you've said! :D
     
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i can't remember if this was discussed.
    i have a feeling it was touched on at some point, but this morning i saw someone had posted a bunch of .gifs and this particular juxtaposition struck me:

    scar_01.GIF
    scar_02.GIF

    the way Han lays his hand on his son's face is almost exactly the path/shape of the scar that Rey gave him, even widening at the base/palm.
    like she inadvertently permanently imprinted it.

    or it's just a coincidence, but it's still fun to read into.

    also, just a note: Ren Ben's eyes shy at the last second when Han is touching his face.
    he's trying to look impassive, but he's already slipping.
     
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  16. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Would Kylo try to save his mother if he has to? I know he did nothing to stop Hux preparing to fire at the resistance base. But imagine a situation with Snoke or Hux or Phasma torturing or trying to kill Leia right in front of him. Would he think of Han's sacrifice in such a situation? You knows..
     
    #96 oldbert, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  17. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Never noticed that before! Great find!

    ...When it comes to analazing gifs are superior to the movie!
     
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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i hope we never see Leia compromised that way, but it's interesting to speculate.
    he made a vague attempt to prevent Hux from firing Starkiller, but it was pretty subtle and he didn't pursue it.

    with one parent dead is Ren going to be less willing to kill the other (or see her killed?).
    or would it be a way to put her (and himself) out of misery?
    there's so much hurt there.
     
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  19. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Well, this long hiatus was shameful of me. I have not read my own thread for a while and I missed your guys excellent contributions.
    I was planning on (and postponing it) catching up for a while now and today I'm finally reading and being absolutely delighted with all of your excellent contributions and I extend a belated thank you to all - @FN-3263827, @Choose Light, @RockyRoadCHu , @Boushhdisguise , @oldbert and also the new to the thread @PrincessLeiaCB3, @Dark Cutie , @Valim and @Qui-GON29. Belated thank you all for contributing!

    I solemnly promise that today I am going to read the two pages I've fallen behind on and write at least two posts in response...(I will not be responding to all posts individually, but rather to the themes I see discussed...)

    @Dark Cutie, belated welcome to the Cantina and thank you for your contribution to the thread and to the cause of Saving Ben Solo.
    Agreed. Saving oneself is a job that one has to do by himself/herself. Noone is going to or is able to do that job for you. However, I also agree that support and help from outside is very beneficial. Just as learning cannot be done for you (you must learn by yourself), but a good and skillful teacher goes a long way.
    From a Buddhist perspective, enlightenment/awakening can be only achieved by oneself, but there are beings Buddhas and bodhisattvas (enlightened beings) who can play an important role in showing you boundless compassion and using skillful methods (called "skillful means", which is sort of enlightenment techniques) that can help nudge one at the right time in the right direction...So while I completely agree - Ben Solo has to destroy Kylo Ren and resurrect himself as Ben Solo again and see the errors of what he has done, and become enlightenment/awakened to the truth, is a job that he himself has to achieve. Noone can achieve it for him, he also will benefit from people who can help him. Those people are Han and Leia (Han already did and that's why I made this thread and I think Han's sacrifice/help will be the crucial catalyst for Ben), also Luke and Rey.
    I have given elsewhere the Buddhist example of how a serial killer Angulimala became accepted by the Buddha becoming a monk and disciple of the Buddha dn completely reforming himself completely and eventually becoming enlightenment - as I don't want to repeat myself, here is the link to my post about it on the Kylo Ren thread...
    So yes, Ben Solo must and should save himslef and he is the only one who can do it, but outside help will not go amiss at all...

    Yes! The only very minor disagreement I have is that Han is the main catalyst for Ben's (re-)turn, Rey is an additional one that is yet in the forming...

    Well, thank you very much! :)

    Thank you for your contribution and for the praise Qui-GON29!
    I do believe that Han's sacrifice is going to be the crucial point for this Trilogy. Hell, judging from the current extremely strong fans reactions I've read on the SW forums, a lot of people now hate Kylo Ren and are still dealing with the trauma (some, not very well) of Han's murder and are ultimately currently not seeing at all a redemption possible for Ben Solo.
    Harrison Ford managed to accomplish something he wanted for his character. He wanted Han Solo's death to have gravitas and indeed it has. I will not be surprised if Han's death even eclipses the famous shock of Vader telling Luke he was his father. The impact of Han's sacrifice will be equally (if not even more) iconic.

    @PrincessLeiaCB3, I'm so very happy you have changed your feelings about Han and Leia's lost son and that you now see that he must be saved!
     
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  20. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    tumblr_inline_o01qjkfPZX1qehh70_500.gif

    Yep. I actually did make the connection with the cheek the very first time I saw the movie. To me it was intentional. In my headcanon whenever Kylo/Ben sees his face now he will remember his father's last act alive - the gentle loving caress of the very same cheek...

    I have even made my personal theory (which who knows might even be true) that the whole staging of positions of both Han and Ben, and set up on the bridge with the very strange choice of hands (Kylo is right handed but in that scene uses his left hand to ignite the saber?) ; Han is also right handed as well and yet he uses his left hand to touch Kylo's right-side cheek, and so my theory is that they made tests with Adam's face and while at first the scar was supposed to be on the other (i.e. left) cheek (illustrated by a concept art on the last page of the Art of Force Awakens) where a face plate is placed at the other cheek. I think that they tested to put the scar on either cheek and the one they ended up with was the right one.

    In fact if you notice when without the helmet Adam Driver was predominantly filmed (with the only exceptions of when he stands before Snoke and also when he has locked swords with Rey and offers to be her teacher) with his left cheek to the camera. This is the profile that he appears more attractive and they have consciously chosen to film Adam like that. My theory is that they chose to put the scar on the right cheek, i.e. Adam's less attractive profile side as going forth they are planning to continue to film Adam to his advantage, i.e. left cheek side whenever possible. The decision where to put the scar then determined how some of the scenes shooting angles were made.
    I know it sounds a bit like overthinking on my part, but if you look at it it might actually be the real consideration behind staging the bridge scene and staging other scenes with Adam as well...

    That the scar side is the same as the cheek side Han lovingly touches is absolutely intentional and deliberate I think.

    As to Leia. I was wondering, who is Leia feeling at that pivotal moment? Does she feel Han or Ben? It would be more logical that as both being FS Leia feels what Ben is feeling. While Han is someone intimately close to her my headcanon is that Leia actually feels Ben at that moment and knows. Also this ties with what Leia said to Han earlier that she knows that there is light in their son. Even though I would imagine Leia has not seen Ben at all for a long time and with the new timeline from Bloodlines neither she nor Han had seen their son for at least 6 years, and in person (i.e. apart from space Skype) it must have been years since they were in physical proximity to each other...So I believe that just as Leia felt Luke (i.e. they had a force bond), she probably has a force bond with her son as well...
    In any case while not a jedi Leia is Force Sensitive and is attune to feel others, so when her and Kylo meet (which must inevitably happen) she will be able to sense that there is still conflict in him...
    Judging from the earlier draft where Han instead of "We miss you" actually says "Your mother misses you" on the bridge, Ben's connection and bond with his mother is a stronger one than with dad. (And in real life boys connection with their mothers is invariably stronger than with their fathers. )

    While not explicitly Kylo does protest against the 2nd use of Starkiller base for D'Qar and is trying his hard to offer an alternative (getting the map from Rey). In fact my interpretation of the second rage outburst when Kylo finds that Rey has escaped and starts lashing at the interrogation room with his lightsaber is in fact rage out of the realisation that with Rey's escape and his inability to buy time to prevent the use of Starkiller weapon he is practically lost the only leverage he had (Rey) to prevent it. I think his rage is this and not actually a tantrum...I.e. I don't think that Kylo is enraged because he has failed with Rey as much as he is enraged with his failure to prevent the firing of Starkiller...I have speculated that at the 1st firing of Starkiller Kylo is nowhere near Hux's nazy rally and observes the scene in silence. Being FS I'm sure that the simultaneous death of millions of people must not have felt great...
     
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