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Han Solo's sacrifice and its repercussions for the ST

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Obi-Wan Solo, Apr 1, 2016.

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Han Solo's death as related to his son's fate

  1. Han Solo's sacrifice will have a profound impact on his son and it will be what ultimately saves him

    29 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. Murdering Han sealed Ben Solo's fate and he is forever lost to the dark side - Han died tragically

    9 vote(s)
    23.7%
  1. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    thanks for reminding ~ i thought it had come up! yes, i agree it seems deliberate.

    i do wonder about the left side/ right side thing, though. i'm not sure Driver has a "better" side.

    if anything, he's shot best dead-on with his ears under his hair because it actually balances his face (which looks crooked in 3/4). i think his profiles are about the same otherwise ~ hahaha

    Screen Shot 2016-06-05 at 2.58.50 PM.png Screen Shot 2016-06-05 at 3.01.08 PM.png

    oddly enough, it's hard to find a left side profile picture of him. i had to dig for that one and it's not very good.

    nevertheless it does feel like they shot him on the left side in TFA, but then he really only has a couple of scenes without the helmet. the lightsaber fight is actually shot mostly on the right, but the interrogation and bridge are shot on the left. so i'm not sure his "best" side was the determining factor.

    this is an interesting different way to think about the scene. because you're right. her strongest connection (even stronger than to Luke) ought to be to her son. she may be feeling he shock of the deed rather than Han's. people have a lot of "ideas" about how these Force feelings work. i like the ambiguity of: is it just a feeling? is there a visual? is it aural? do you feel what the other person is feeling or is it what they are projecting? all sorts of possibilities. if there is a Force bond more explicit in the coming films, it will be interesting to see this explored!

    also interesting. i go back and forth wondering how conscious he is of the impending death of his mother. the order has already been given and it's a good assumption that she is targeted. does getting the map matter at this point? Snoke has asked to see Rey and by the time they get through whatever he was planning Hux will likely have already fired the bugger. or not.
    does he think he can convince Snoke to rescind the order? doesn't seem likely.
    and at the same time, is he thinking about the death of his mother while he's on the bridge with Han telling him "it's too late"?

    my own gut tells me that he's disconnect from all of that. he's mad because Rey has bewitched him, turned the probe back on him, embarrassed him to Snoke (and Hux), and now he's underestimated her yet again and she's escaped. it's basically the same reason he flipped earlier with Mitaka: he had compassion for Finn and let him go and consequently all hell broke loose. and now he's done the same dang thing with Rey and the stakes are even worse.

    there's so much going on in these scenes. i'm endlessly amazed by people who call this movie facile.
     
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  2. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    I think the Force Bond thing is definetely going to be explored more and come up going forth in the next two episodes. Between Leia and Luke, also possibly Leia and Ben and possibly Ben and Rey as well...There will be a lot of communication through the Force...

    Yes, the "It's too late" can have several layers of meaning, including this one. There will be nowhere to go home to, the weapon will be fired in minutes and mom will be gone. I might as well kill you dad. I really don't want to, but all is lost and hopeless and I'm so deep into it as it is...

    I do think he still has hope that if he manages to get the coordinates of where Luke is from Rey he may sway Snoke not to use the weapon...As per the official script and novelization, the use of Starkiller is definetely not what he wanted (clearly said) and he does try to offer the alternative...
    Also, remember, Snoke wants the coordinates destroyed so that Luke is never found by anybody, while Kylo needs the droid (map) intact. (Hux warns him about his "personal interests" explicitly with relation to that)... Apparently Kylo wants to find where Luke is, and I doubt that his goal is to kill Luke. I suspect he is after the location (1st Jedi Temple) rather Luke himself.
    But you are right also, his frustration in BOTH cases where he loses his temper and slashes stuff up in rage are actually, in both occasions the rage directed at himself - the first one is he is enraged that he let Finn escape and in this way Kylo is actually the one responsible for the development of Finn escaping with Poe, etc.) and the second rage fit is also directed at himself for trying his best to be a galand host to the scavenger and instead of going straight for what he was after was distracted by his "personal interests" again...In those two cases Kylo's rage (one may go as far and say) is against Ben Solo and is thus a manifestation of self-hate actually...

    Exactly! It is so rich and multilayered. Quite an achievement in fact...
    I have never, ever spend so much time analysing (and over analyzing) anything, let alone a film, apart from my academic work. I can basically compare the minute scrutiny and study I have done of the details of this one movie (and in retrospect the saga ever since TFA came out) only to the amount of work I put in my scholarly analysis of texts I've done and do for my academic research...
    Basically if I had put this much time and effort in my PhD dissertation the past half a year and so instead of the TFA my dissertation will basically have been by now probably half completed...Facile this movie is not.
     
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  3. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    this could be totally awesome!

    i don't really see this. he's already annoyed Snoke by complaining, so he's in trouble as it is (whatever that means between them is up for interpretation still). the only thing getting the map will help with is, as you said, finding out where Luke is. it might be mere consolation at this juncture, but then he loses that too ~ hahaha. and again, he's already aggravated Snoke about Rey and now she's gone missing so he can't just bring her like he's supposed to and he suspects something Snoke doesn't yet, which is that Rey is the awakening (which he conveniently didn't express in so many words when he could have, perhaps, and mitigated his case to Snoke to begin with). that's either a lapse in the writing, or Ren's got a puzzlebox mind that even he isn't necessarily aware of.

    oh absolutely! he has less of a problem directing (and even controlling) his anger more purposefully when he's mad at other people. and even his flipping out is clearly a vent; he can pull up when he has to. even with Finn, he goes all crazy mean on him taunts him all cat and mouse, but once Finn tags him, he just ends the fight. he is capable of control, it's just not his natural inclination.

    hahaha ~ yes me too. if i harnessed the time and energy i've spent ruminating upon and dissecting TFA i could probably take over a small country at least.
     
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  4. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    Never once thought that the "It's too late" was something like that. Interesting to think about.
     
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  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i still think he's referring more specifically to himself: he's cast his lot and he can't see how to extricate himself, but i could see how it could definitely also refer to Leia's potential impending doom.
     
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  6. TheWookiee02

    TheWookiee02 Rebelscum

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    I believe that Han's death could only be meaningful. His journey ended with one final act of love, bravery and sacrifice. Han wasn't a Jedi, he was just a man who truly loved his son, and that love was the only thing that mattered in the end. But I have a question for you. What if Han's sacrifice had more to it than what we have all seen? What if Kylo Ren/Ben Solo didn't actually ignite the lightsaber? If you look back on that scene (and I have watched it numerous times) and you think about the dialogue, my theory may not sound as crazy as you think. Kylo Ren states he is 'being torn apart' and that he doesn't have the strength to do what he has been instructed to do, kill his father. We assume that once Ren has completed his task he will be one with the Dark Side. But when I first saw this scene in the cinema, I was confused. I thought that Ren wanted to kill himself, and that's why he seemed to be handing the lightsaber to Han. Han responds to Ren's teary, 'will you help me' with a heartbreakingly beautiful 'Yes. Anything.' Maybe Han knows more than we think he does. Maybe this silent exchange had more meaning to it than meets the eye. I believe that Han understood what Ren was required to do. Maybe he believed that if he was killed, Ren could ultimately be saved. Or perhaps Ren was going to kill himself, and Han decided he could not let that happen. Either way, I believe that Han killed himself so that Ren didn't have to kill him. It would be the ultimate sacrifice. After Han is stabbed, Ren says a teary 'thank you'. He doesn't say it in a horribly mocking tone like many believe, but he says it as if he is truly sorry, no matter how evil he has become. Han was his father, his family. Ren could not have possibly enjoyed his demise whether he killed him or not. Han's fate was decided the moment he left Tatooine on the Millennium Falcon with Luke, Obi Wan, Artoo and Threepio. It was always going to happen. Han died a hero's death and such a beloved character could only meet such a tragic, yet meaningful end.

     
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  7. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Welcome to the Cantina @TheWookiee02 ! And thank you making your first post in the forums on this thread.
    It sounds that we think alike.
    I don't know if you had the time to read through the whole thread, but your speculation about Han possibly having a hand (literally) in what happened at the bridge is also my own feeling...It is of course, just a speculation, but I think that it is very possible that in some way we will possibly see the scene again this time from a different angle or we will get some additional explanation about what happened...
    My feeling is that in any case whatever happened on the bridge at StarkillerBase is crucial for the ST and the fate of Han and Leia's son Ben...and that Han's sacrifice would have a big (and I believe, a positive) impact on what happens with his son...Han's last act was an act of unconditional love. I cannot imagine that Han's sacrifice and his and Leia's love for each other which no doubt resulted in their son and their love for him would come to a bad end.
     
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  8. SithSorcererofdeath

    SithSorcererofdeath Rebel Official

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    Its clear Kylo made his final decision. His dark side affinity will grow to that of
    Palpatine.

    Do you realize how Hateful it is to kill your father?
     
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  9. FN-3263827

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    except he didn't kill him with hate. [shrug].
     
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  10. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    He killed him with love -_- .
     
  11. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    A couple of days ago I rewatched the scene where Anakin after having nightmares about his mom Shmi, finally finds her on Tatooine and attempts to rescue her from her brutal captivity in the hands of the Sand People/Tusken Raiders.



    Unfortunately Anakin is too late and he only has a few moments with his mom before she dies from her wounds.

    At her death, Anakin, filled with hate and anger, kills everybody in the Tusken camp, and this can be seen as the first deed that starts his turn to the darkside. It is undoubtedly a milestone in his turning to the darkside.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    What struck me when I rewatched the scene was that I found very interesting parallels to that scene (visual as well) and with the scene with Han and Ben on the bridge.

    (Of course, these two events are also very different and have a very different narrative, Anakin goes to try to save his mom from captivity and she dies from her wounds inflicted by the cruel sand people, and we know that Ben/Kylo kills his father as a terrible test set to him by Snoke, but also I think they share quite a bit in both visual and emotional impact for the two young Skywalkers and have proven pivotal for their character's developments. )

    After some thinking about the parallels, it seems to me that, as I have stated several times in this thread, the scene between Han and Ben has the potential of playing a crucial role in Ben's turn to the Lightside. While for Anakin, Shmi's death was the catalyst and milestone for his turn to the Darkside and the loving touch of his mom which he has not seen in many years made her loss fill him with hate and pain, Ben's last encounter with his father can serve the opposite purpose and be the catalyst and milestone for his turn (or rather re-turn) to the Lightside.

    - Shmi has not seen Anakin for many years. The last time she saw him he was a boy. (from what we know) Han has also not seen Ben for many years and on the Starkiller bridge is the first time he sees the face of his son as a grown man
    - Anakin tells her that he misses her. Han tells Ben that he and Leia miss him.
    - Just before dying, Shmi lovingly touches Anakin's cheek and tells him that she loves him with her dying breath.
    - Shmi dies as Anakin tries to save her and take her home; Han dies as he tries to save Ben and take him home (sort of a parallel).

    [​IMG]
    hqdefault.jpg
    han and ben.jpg
    In both Anakin's and Ben's cases, they have not seen their parent in many years. This is the first and last time they see each other and share moments together. In both cases, the reunion brings tears to the child's eyes, and the parent lovingly touches the cheek of their child as their last gesture

    [​IMG]

    tumblr_o4kp7hNlIm1rp4uy8o2_500.gif

    tumblr_o270y1EK8V1rszoo3o1_r1_500.gif
    Both Anakin and Ben experience excruciating pain at the loss. Both Anakin and Ben are clearly deeply affected.
    [​IMG]
    Screen Shot 2016-07-05 at 7.18.27 AM.png

    In both cases, another Force sensitive senses their pain - for Anakin that's Yoda, in Ben's that's Leia, his mom. ("Young Skywalker is in pain, terrible pain." is valid for both cases.)



    [​IMG]
     
    #111 Obi-Wan Solo, Oct 6, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    without getting into some kind of circles within circles ring theory nonsense, it is clear that they wanted to draw parallels (or invite comparisons) between Ben and Anakin. this may be a part of the reason that old OT fans like myself find Ben (and his story) so resonant. i can't tell you how many people from my generation have said to me: he's the Anakin we should have had.
     
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  13. WattoIsAJedi

    WattoIsAJedi Clone

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    This is certainly interesting, never thought about this resemblance before
     
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