1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Old Threads Reappearing - The main SWNN site is currently undergoing a refresh. As a result some old threads may reappear in The Cantina while background maintenance is being carried out.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

SPECULATION Has Kylo/Ben been to Ahch-to before?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by timonder, Feb 7, 2016.

  1. timonder

    timonder Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Posts:
    218
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    457
    Credits:
    1,052
    Ratings:
    +312 / 4 / -3
    Okay, my first thread. After my third viewing of TFA I'm not so cocksure about it anymore, but I still like the idea of it.

    Since I first saw TFA, I have been under the impression that Kylo Ren has been to Ahch-to before - when he still called himself Ben. And now that he has become part of the First Order, he is desperate to get back there (motivation yet unknown) but it appears that he can't because he's never actually seen the navigational chart and wouldn't be able to pilot a ship there alone.

    This is how Lor San Tekka and Kylo Ren explore Kylo's mission:

    Kylo: You know what I've come for.
    LST: I know where you come from. Before you called yourself Kylo Ren.
    Kylo: The map to Skywalker.

    In so early a scene, we don't know enough about Kylo to suggest that he's purposefully trying to go off topic. So if assume that he's adding information to LST's claim, rather than contradict him, this exchange would suggest that what Kylo has come for = where he comes from (before he defected) = the location of Luke Skywalker

    The biggest give-away (in my imagination, at least) is the interrogation scene on Starkiller base because Kylo is actually crying. He isn't primarily interrogating Rey in order to look at the map in her head, but because she's had the privilege to be shown the classified map.

    What's interesting is that he describes the island we'll eventually find Luke on, in a way that makes me think he was actually there: "...You're so lonely... so afraid to leave... At night, desperate to sleep... you imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island." There a subtle change to casual in Driver's voice at the end, as if he no longer wants to impress Rey with how well he understands her but becomes dismissive instead, because having been to that island is nothing special. I don't even know if he can see the island bit in her head, or if he's just bluffing by extrapolating from his experience, knowing that she's been there.

    These two scenes lend the most support to my belief that Kylo Ren at the beginning of TFA is at a crossroads in his career: go back to Ahch-to and confront the master he betrayed, as well as the mess he left behind - or move forward and confront the guy who seduced him, Snoke.

    Since Skerrig Michael in the movie looks nothing like the picturesque forested island in the script, I could imagine that they end up scrapping the idea that Luke Skywalker would willingly settle there and raise a family. But I got the impression from the Takodana scenes that Rey is reminded of two things there:

    1.) Home, but with less water and more trees
    2.) A run-in with a masked guy in black when she was a kid

    So I wonder if Ben's betrayal of Luke happened on Ahch-to, when he was there as Luke's apprentice, and left the island as Kylo Ren.

    Is this completely off?
     
    • Original Original x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,310
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,818
    Ratings:
    +157,628 / 65 / -7


    Where Kylo Ren "comes from" is Leia Organa and Han Solo (and the Skywalker lineage). LST isn't referring to a literal place, but a family affiliation opposed to his current state attached to the FO.

    Kylo Ren actually never cries in the movie. he may look on the verge of it on the bridge, but he never actually does. and certainly not in the interrogation scene, though Rey does spill tears.

    if he's upset about anything in that scene, it's not about the island ~ he's upset about Han Solo being the "father she never had".

    her Force vision may well be the first time she's ever seen Kylo Ren. or it could be a memory. we don't have enough information to draw conclusions yet. it is possible she's seen him before, but doubtful it was on Ach-to.

    to be honest, i think you might be off. the whole point of Ach-to is that it's unfindable. if other people have been there, it wouldn't be lost. if it's the location of the Jedi Temple, we've been told that both Luke and the FO have been looking for it for some years (at least 6).

    it makes very little sense that Luke would exile himself to an island where he once kept company with anyone (particularly anyone with FS) could ostensibly locate him. and there just doesn't seem to be real supporting evidence that either Rey or Ren know anything more about this place than a dream in Rey's head, which Ren interprets as merely that: a dream.

    if the island had resonance for Ren, he really would have reacted, but the scene is played in a manner than he himself does not connect the island with the map at all.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,787
    Likes Received:
    15,159
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,057
    Ratings:
    +26,502 / 845 / -253
    I'm sure that if Ren's betrayal was on Zach-To then he would know how to get back using the force fairly easily .
     
  4. timonder

    timonder Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Posts:
    218
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    457
    Credits:
    1,052
    Ratings:
    +312 / 4 / -3
    That's just the thing about him being force-sensitive. Now that I've seen the movie again, I get the impression that he's less force-sensitive than he pretends to be. He can feel disturbances in the Force but the Force doesn't guide him the way it would guide a Jedi. So he couldn't fly blind.

    When he claims to know the Stormtrooper who escaped, he says "the one from the village" because he's seen the guy hesitate. He had to turn around and check with his eyes to get specific details. The script actually mentions that Hux "chalks it up" to Kylo's Force abilities, as if he was wrong to assume that. And when Kylo finally senses Han Solo on Starkiller base, he ends up walking right past him and onto the bridge. Han looks after him like he feels sorry for his pathetic kid.

    I believe now that the map was classified in a way, but not entirely secret. The only people who could recall the details of the map would probably be force-sensitive people. Others would need the physical map for reference. And Kylo actually reacts to Poe Dameron receiving the map from Lor San Tekka as if it was a perceived slight: "The old man gave it to you." As if he was surprised. And then he's hung up about why the droid has shown the map to Rey - a scavenger. As if he felt slighted again. After all, BB-8 shows the map to Finn and Han as well because they appear trustworthy. And the entire Resistance crew gets to look at the map eventually.
     
  5. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Posts:
    16,787
    Likes Received:
    15,159
    Trophy Points:
    149,777
    Credits:
    20,057
    Ratings:
    +26,502 / 845 / -253
    You do have a point there...Kylo's training was never completed as A Jedi or under Snoke .
     
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,310
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,818
    Ratings:
    +157,628 / 65 / -7
    it's hard to argue that Kylo Ren isn't particularly powerful with the Force. i agree it likely doesn't guide him the way it would a Jedi, but that's because he's a muddled thinker. he does just fine when he's focused.

    him turning to look at the village is for our benefit as the audience. we need a visual cue that he's observing FN-2187.

    and the reason he walks past Han onto the bridge is because he deliberately wants to lure Han into the open. his intention in that scene initially is that he knows there will be a confrontation between himself and his father, and this is his "grand" moment to show Snoke what he's made of. it doesn't work out quite like that, but as with all things Kylo Ren, he's being dramatic.

    just food fer thought.
     
    • Like Like x 3
Loading...

Share This Page