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Has Kylo EVER Won a Lightsaber Duel?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    In my opinion, one of the things that made Vader so intimidating was that he remained a formidable duelist even after sustaining extreme injuries. That got me thinking - has Kylo Ren ever won a lightsaber duel?

    Yes, Kylo sucker punched Han and Snoke. Yes, he abused a hologram. Yes, he cut down some nameless characters no one remembers. But has he ever actually won a true lightsaber duel? It seems to me that the only traditional lightsaber duel we have actually seen with Kylo was against Rey, which, as Snoke himself points out, Kylo lost even though Rey had never held a lightsaber.

    I'm not totally clear what happened during the destruction of Luke's temple, and I guess maybe Kylo faced Luke then - but it's also possible that another Knight of Ren faced Luke, or that Luke just fled.

    I don't mean this to just be a "bag on Kylo Ren" thread, but nonetheless, I do feel like his presence is somewhat diminished by his seeming lack of duel victories.
     
  2. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Rebel Official

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    Not on camera no, unless you count the fight with the guards in TLJ. At this point, can he?

    I agree with this. Kylo honestly hasn't truly won a battle on his own, and because of that, we don't fear him (or respect him as much as we should). Or rather, we fear what he might do out of anger, but we don't fear him because he's an antagonist. But that goes for the First Order as a whole too...
     
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  3. srg

    srg Force Attuned

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    In what world the fight with Praetorian guards doesn't count? ;) It was a challenging melee combat and he dealt with multiple opponents at once like a boss. It doesn't matter that it wasn't technically a lightsaber duel. Moreover, Kylo defeated Finn (easy win, though) and he was clearly dominating Rey up until she got a mysterious Force boost.

    Even though we haven't seen him win an "actual, traditional lightsaber duel" other than the one with Finn, I still think he's a badass fighter.
     
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  4. saltypistol

    saltypistol Clone

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    As srg mentioned above, Kylo Ren was the definite victor of the Praetorian fight in TLJ. He also did win against Finn during the forest battle of TFA. And while we are yet to see it, he managed to slaughter an entire Jedi Academy and best luke skywalker.

    Despite this I still don't think Ren is anything but an average duelist, his strength is definitely with the force much like Luke before him.
     
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  5. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    The Praetorian fight is what I meant by "he cut down some nameless characters no one remembers." Not only do they not have lightsabers, but none of them are even developed characters. None of them are differentiated from the others, none of them had any major plot points, and frankly I don't even know if they have names.

    I'm not saying they are "bad" characters or that it was a "bad" scene. But it isn't winning a lightsaber duel.
     
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  6. JediMasterRaspberry

    JediMasterRaspberry Rebel Trooper

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    Yes the thread title confused me. He has been in three sword fights and won two.(duel)

    And he saved Rey in their fight with the Pretorian Guards - so technically is the winner of that fight.

    Why do think the fight between Ren and Rey in Force Awakens is not "traditional"?
     
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  7. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    Well, we've only seen about 3-4 days of his life and he's 30 years old. It might be too early to draw conclusions.
     
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  8. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    I don't understand your post. The saber battle in TFA is a traditional lightsaber duel. The problem isn't that that fight didn't count. The problem is that Kylo lost.

    I have already explained why the Pretorian Guard scene doesn't count as a lightsaber duel. But in addition to the reasons I already cited, there is also the fact that Kylo had help from Rey in that fight, as well as the fact that the Pretorian Guards are not Force-sensitive. The ability to use the Force is not 100% required for it to be a "real" lightsaber duel, but I can only think of one character who doesn't use the Force that I think counts as a real saber duelist (General Grievous).
     
  9. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Sooo would you rather have had Kylo win over Luke?
     
  10. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    He slaughtered most of Luke's Jedi students and I assume all of them were armed with a saber like he was. So I think he has one a fight or two with a lightsaber. Dude can obviously fight.
     
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  11. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Sensitive

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    ^I think you have to. Kylo has never won a lightsaber duel onscreen because there's only one *real* duel in the ST. But we see his combat prowess in the guard fight, and even before that we see his force-mastery on Jakku when he freezes a laser bolt.
     
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  12. JediMasterRaspberry

    JediMasterRaspberry Rebel Trooper

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    We don’t know what actually happened after Ben left Luke in the rubble of the hut that night.

    Was there a fight between those loyal to Luke and the ones who followed Ben? Did Ben already know who would follow him and kill some in their sleep?

    How many students had actually constructed lightsabers? The Knights of Ren in Rey’s vision are armed what look like clubs and hammers - only Kylo holds a lightsaber.
     
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  13. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    Well Luke says he slaughtered the students that did not join him so that is enough evidence for me that he dispatched Jedi and he had a saber so not much of a jump to think his peers did too . Is this definitive? Not at all but I do not think it is much of a stretch either .
     
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  14. JediMasterRaspberry

    JediMasterRaspberry Rebel Trooper

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    I'm not saying that there was no fighting or that other students did not have lightsabers, just that we don't know what actually happened.

    Ben was powerful and could have been ahead of the others.

    What does Luke mean by a "slaughter"? Were the good Padawans simply out matched or was it an actual "slaughter" - that the bad guys killed them in a cruel fashion or killed them unnecessarily - that Ben and his followers could have just left or the good Jedi put up no fight thinking peace was the way.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2019 ---
    In the Prequels Lucas focused on the physical powers of the Jedi - speed, agility, jumps, etc. - and other than the Yoda fights there was very little use of the telekinetic powers.

    In the Sequels the magical powers are getting good screen time but the physical powers haven't been used at all. A deleted scene in TLJ has running and jumping across the island but it is not clear if this is superhuman abilities or simply unfinished VFX.

    While limited, the Original Trilogy has Luke use both and Rebels & TCW also use both.

    Have Abrams or Johnson ever commented on this? I'm interested to know why - especially from Abrams. In Star Trek the characters have fights and stunts suited to Jedi but dials it way back for Star Wars.

    I haven't had a chance to hear the commentaries on TFA or TLJ so if either director mentions it there please tell me and I'll wait to hear it there.
     
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  15. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    Kylo wasn't in a fight with Finn & Rey. yes light sabers were being used, but he wasn't trying to kill them. (in my opinion)

    He was in utter turmoil - both mentally and physically. add to that.. he was fascinated by Rey, and was under instruction from Snoke to bring her to him.

    We all saw him throw Rey up into the air and against a tree using the force.. he didn't even have to ignite his saber to kill Finn & Rey if that was what he wanted to do.

    He was riding an emotional roller coaster.. he had just murdered his own father, and in front of the girl that he has a strange bond with.

    When he heads them off in the forest he doesn't know what he wants.. he is angry, confused, upset and very badly injured.

    I even think that he purposely only injured Finn when he slashed his back.. because he didn't know what he wanted to do, but he certainly didn't want to kill another friend of Rey in front of her.

    this is just my opinion, but i do not believe that he tried to kill Rey or Finn at any point during that encounter. Even with a critical injury i do not believe they would have lasted 5 seconds had he wanted them dead.
     
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  16. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    It's questionable with Finn 'cause of the whole "TRAITOR" comment. However, Snoke did say that he wanted Kylo to bring in Rey alive. So he wasn't trying to kill her.
     
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  17. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    You're so right! As soon as Finn got a lucky hit on Kylo, he ended the fight immediately and easy by disarming Finn. Furthermore Kylo Ren had the upper hand during the fight with Rey. He pushed her back and back to the cliff. Why are people always forgetting that...
     
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  18. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    not only could he have ended (and killed) Finn at any point.. he also could have simply taken the saber from him using the force.

    he didn't have a smegging clue what he was doing in that forest, or what he wanted from the confrontation with Rey & Finn.
    He murdered his own father - thinking that it would make him stronger. not only did it not make him stronger.. but he looked up and saw Rey watching him.. he had never felt so weak in his whole life.

    He perhaps threw Rey into the air because he didn't know what to say to her. it was almost like he was keeping the Finn fight going while he was trying to work out what was going on in his head.
    He put Finn down just as Rey was coming to.. he again sees the horror and disappointment in her eyes as she tends to Finn.

    it's like every single step he takes.. he feels weaker in front of Rey.

    then she takes the saber from his grasp using the force.. another confusing blow.

    everyone should watch these scenes again.. Kylo is ****ing messed up !
     
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  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I think when it comes to analyzing the ST, this point can't be hammered home hard enough.

    Fact is, even with two movies out, we don't really know these characters yet. I mean, we've seen them on screen and many of us even really like most of them, but the timespan is so short so far.

    I think IX will help, but I really look forward to the new EU fleshing out this era quite a bit more. The sense of scale has been pretty wonky lately (as, to be honest, it was for the majority of the OT, too).
     
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  20. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Has Kylo ever won a LS battle? Not on screen. Unless you consider his confrontation with Finn a legitimate LS battle. Technically the Snoke's PG didn't have LS though they did have energy weapons. It's probably the best you're going to get at this point.
     
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