Has your TLJ opinion changed dramatically over time?

Just dont Focker it

 

I grew on a farm too. Letting the GREAT MILKING begin.

 

My opion hasn’t changed much. I liked it but didn’t love it as much as I would have liked.

 

Before TLJ came out I theorized that there would be some kind of backlash if Rey wasn't a Skywalker. I don't get this bloodline obsession and for the people who are still hung up on it it's a good idea to let it go. Star Wars future isn't about bloodlines.

 

While I agree, the problem is that the Saga films are about the Skywalker family. And the only remaining Skywalker is not only a Dark Side user, but likely going to die in IX.

Disney, with all the rumors and bad press that's going on, won't end the saga in IX. Yes, they would take a break. Go on with other trilogies, but Saga films are the ones that bring big bucks. They are going nowhere.

So, there's a problem. Luke didn't have children; the only way is going on with Rey from nowhere, and I don't think old fans in general will like that.

 

Luke is never going away. I'm not sure Kylo is going to die. Plus, he's not a Jedi so I could very easily see a situation where this trilogy ends with Rey having to train Ben's child. George decided Jedi don't have kids. That was settled almost 20 years ago. It's part of the lore.

 

Because if Star Wars is known for something, it's for following its lore.

Luke is the son of a Jedi.

Anakin had them while he was a Jedi. They were born when he wasn't, but he was still a Jedi when he made them. Luke wasn't a Jedi when he was on the island, he disconected from the Force. He could have met someone (Mara).

Also, Luke thought that the Jedi laws were a mistake in the first place.

Still, you can solve this problem with another alternative: Don't kill Luke.

At this point, Reylo is off the table and Kylo is not going to come back (and if he does, people will say its another rehash).

 

Luke is also the son of a Sith Lord who killed kids, destroyed the Jedi order, and help start the Empire. Anakin would have been expelled from the Jedi Order had the secret been exposed. For good reason... it was his toxic possession to his wife/kids that led to the destruction of everything. Which is why it was forbidden for Jedi to have kids.

There's going to be a time jump. If Ben has a kid it won't be with Rey. Rey is a going to be a Jedi so she's not gonna have kids.

Kylo can turn and who cares what people say. People complained TFA was a rehash and then complained TLJ was too different.

 

I took in my second viewing of TLJ today on Netflix.

I watched it alone to check on certain claims that people made on here and be able to pause, back up and take notice of everything.

My overall opinion hasn't changed, though I'll admit I may have been a little over critical of some things. The Hux and Poe humor at the beginning wasn't as bad as I remembered it. It was still weak imo, but I could have easily forgiven it had I enjoyed the rest. As some said, mostly on par with Poe and Kylo in TFA.

That being said, Leia's "death" when getting jettisoned from the bridge is not really defensible. At some point someone claimed she visibly braces herself for the explosion, and though this is open to interpretation, it looked more like to me she sighed in relief that her son hadn't destroyed the bridge. But that was just my take. Also, there was no second door/airlock after her Mary Poppins part. She flew back through the bridge, so it would make sense that interior doors would not have airlocks or force fields keeping space out. Any blue light that could be seen was from schematics operating on the bridge. It would also make sense to me that any and every door on a ship would be sealed tight in the case of emergency and was exposed to space. Especially secondary doors just two steps away from being open to space.

Overall though for the rest, my opinion has mostly stayed the same. What I didn't like, I still don't. What I was okay with, I still am. I didn't feel angry re-watching it. Knowing what to expect helped and I'm tired of the anger. I watched it more in an analytical way. I don't expect I'll ever watch it again in its entirety. I'm happy it's on Netflix now so I can now fact check if they make certain claims.

 

It's perfectly fine that you don't like this scene. However, I love the scene. It's no more unbelievable than other things we've seen in Star Wars. The Exogorth in Empire Strikes Back didn't have an airlock. Do people lose their sense of imagination just because they don't like something?

 

In the Exogorth scene, they were inside some type of life form. I'm not going to pretend to know how this life form works, or if it's even possible, but the scene does go on to great lengths specify and explain things. One, they need a mask to breath. Two, there's moisture. Three, the ground feels weird. It takes us along to make us believe that there is some sort of barrier or ... something, that keeps some semblance of an atmosphere... likely something needed to digest whatever it consumes.

Yes, the science is corny, but then again, the only kind of life that we know is what we have on Earth. In an entire galaxy, it's not impossible (I'd even say it's likely) that there are forms of life that we've never encountered. By Han's eventual reaction and decisions, it seems he's at least heard of these things before.

My point is that there was at least an attempt to explain. As a fan it was easy to suspend our disbelief by the way GL slowly got us to buy into it. It wasn't done in seconds and steps were taken to have us buy in.

Much like you, it doesn't really bother me that you like the Leia scene. I'm not stating my opinion to in some way refute yours or that of others. However, I think there is enough difference between the Leia and the Exogoth scene that they aren't very similar to draw a comparison. Oranges to apples. Like it if you want, but like it for what it is.

Then of course, speaking for myself, I expect more from LFL then I did back in the 1980s. We didn't understand as much about space (and science as a whole) back then as we do now. Moving forward, people who direct SW films need to consider they are dealing with a more informed audience. If they themselves don't understand basic science, they need to have at least someone on board to go over their scripts to add some authenticity to the story. For example, with Leia it would have been simple to add an airlock, a second barrier, or maybe even have her not go through the bridge, but to an outside airlock to get back inside.

 

You've gone all this way to explain Exogorth and there's any number of reasons to explain Leia and your airlock "problem."

Basic science would tell me that the Exogorth scene is impossible. Basic science would tell me grabbing object with the force is impossible. Sound in space is impossible. Star Wars isn't science fiction. It's a fantasy series.

 

It's a fantasy series set in space. There's a reason people aren't walking outside of space ships everywhere without space suits, or having personal hyperdrive systems to hyperdrive themselves to another sector, then enter atmosphere and survive a burn to the surface. There is no attempt to explain how or why. There is still a need to keep things relatively plausible, because the "sci" is still there.

With Leia Poppins, there is not even the slightest attempt to explain anything. It's accept or you're a (insert derogatory remark). I could have accepted the funky visuals over time, mostly because I don't have a solution to it myself. The lack of giving the audience even a crumb to make that leap is my issue. Honestly, had she fallen to the deck once she enters the bridge, I could have and would have assumed a force field went up to return a basic atmosphere to the bridge. We didn't get that. Had there been an airlock or second door, I could have accepted it functioned as an airlock, and thus the reason why no one got pushed out. Honestly, they could have made her enter the bridge earlier in the movie and wait a couple seconds as the second door cycled and I would have been satisfied.

Just like we all know GL had oversights in the OT, there will be issues with that Leia scene that will always be known to be oversights for RJ. The difference is that most of the oversights in the OT were discovered years later. RJ could have easily avoided his oversights by having someone go over the movie and script and add something in the background upon production. It wouldn't have been anything more complicated than something as simple as having windows on Bespin. So not even adding time to the movie, just information through visuals. All RJ needed was something like GL did when he made Exogorth (adding a oxygen mask ect...). He failed to extend even that little bit.

As for Exogorth (I didn't need to go "all this way", it's in the movie if you paid attention) and it not being possible due to what we know of science, I agree. However, our knowledge about space is in its infancy. Scientists suspect our table of elements likely only has 10-20% of substances that exist in the galaxy. As for the Force, I'm a lot more flexible on that then I am on science. Fantasies don't have things far outside our human experience unless there is some kind of explanation as to why (often implausible, superficial and lacking in detail, but it's something, not nothing). Floating island? Fine, there's a floating gas inside, or ancient magical spell cast on it. Magical sword that can banish undeads by imitating light from the sun? It was imbued by a god or deity of the Sun. The thing is, with fantasy, we're not dealing with science on any level. With sci fantasy there is a level of science, and thus a greater degree of attention to detail needs to be shown. They are less likely to have to explain things with magic or deities, but more apt to need to explain through science as we understand it today. It only needs to be general in terms of detail, but it can't be skipped with impunity either. If they do, at least for some fans, it will bring the series down in quality.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy it for what it is, all I'm saying that some fans want more respect toward the "sci" part of Sci-Fantasy.

 

to me this is a molehill nitpick. the point of the scene is that Leia saved herself using the Force.
what does the rest of it matter? are we now saying that she can't stave off death for a few seconds to be rescued?
or that a ship that's been breeched can't have some kind of shield to bubble and protect the interior? (just making stuff up here)
how does Darth Vader stand on the edge of the ship in Rogue One without floating off into space?
does he use the Force? does he have gravity boots? obviously he has a protective suit and oxygen, but how does his cape blow in the "wind"?

when you start pecking at something to this degree, it's clear that you are not engaged with the story--and that's perfectly fine.
but the movie has no interest in answering those kinds of questions because they aren't important; it's not a flaw, it's literally by design.

 

As I said, I have no issue when others enjoy it. All I'm saying is that I feel the OT paid a little more attention to try and put some explanation on it. I think the Sci part of Sci Fantasy was more important to GL then it is in the ST. I'm not saying that to knock the ST as obviously some fans have no issue with this, but at the same time complaining that other fans have issues with it isn't conductive to any sort of harmony among fans. SW is rare in that magic and science co-exist in almost equal parts. Some of the enjoyment I derived from it was the attention to detail and the attempt to balance both in their stories. That's my personal preference, it doesn't have to be yours, but I would hope that when there's a simple solution they would include it. Why not please all fans if it doesn't involve another second of screen time, but rather just adding some extra detail in the visuals?

 

to be clear, i'm not complaining that other fans have these issues.
if it were up to me, everyone would love all the Star Wars. : D
but in the event that they don't and there are unanswered questions, can't fans just come up with their own solutions?
i just made one up and it works for me.
i guess that's the quandary here.

where things aren't explained, we're expected (and in fact invited) to fill in the blanks.
that's part of participating with the text. and the OT absolutely upheld this.
it rarely explained anything that wasn't 100% critical to the plot.

it's fair to be dissatisfied that the movie doesn't provide all the answers (we all want more!)
but to insist that it should and therefore somehow fails doesn't hold for me.

do you just want a passive experience?
honestly, the fact that we get to choose what we think happens in this moment is much more exciting to me.

 

I was on board with that way of thinking before. I shared in it in fact. The problem is that in a void of information, we create head canon by filling in those blanks. Then 30-40 years down the road they tell us what we believed all this time was wrong. The Force is turning out to be something far more fantastical that I believed it to be when only the OT was out and I formed my head canon around it. I'm not a fan of this new interpretation of the Force, not in the PT, and not the bigger steps it's taken in the ST. I don't hate SW, but I find the series as a whole less satisfying due to my filing those blanks. I preferred my head canon.

So I'm not sure if asking fans to fill those blanks and leaving it open to interpretation is the right way to go, based on my experience. I was also more accepting of the expansion in the PT because it was following GL's vision. When the creator says it's so, it's hard to argue. Now that Disney has it and it's switching hands a lot, I'm afraid the inconsistencies will create cracks in our bubbles, making it more and more difficult to suspend our disbelief.

 

my guess is that it works for some (me), and not for others (you?).
my guess is that our flexibility with head canon plays a huge role in this.

as an OT kid, i had all sorts of head canon about Vader and Obi-Wan.
the PT came along and gave me a whole other story. and one i'll admit i didn't much care for.
i'm okay with a.) revising my head canon, or b.) ignoring the PT (selectively or in its entirety).

the beauty of imagination is that it does whatever you want it to, whenever you want it to.
and you are in control of suspending your own disbelief; no one can wrest that power away from you.
if you let your head canon ossify, or cling to it with two hands in an iron grip, you'll always be disappointed.

imagination is like a muscle: you have to always be exercising it or else it atrophies.

 

also, it's all fake.
so it can be whatever you want.

Unless you're actually writing it or trying to "well actually" someone, your personal adherence to it is moot.

 

I'm an OT kid as well. I certianly understand people having issues with story choices, but there's an element of nitpicking I've noticed from some older fans. This was before TLJ, but I remember my cousin complaining about Rey leaving the net behind when she first meets BB-8. His reasoning... "if Rey is a scavenger why would she leave that behind." My reasoning... maybe it's worthless? It's just an odd thing to latch on to when there's plenty of explanations that don't need to be explained.