Has your TLJ opinion changed dramatically over time?

This movie left me feeling empty when I first saw it (though I LOVED the yoda scene and there was a lot of great eye candy), even moreso the second time, and frankly it's gotten worse on repeat viewings rather than better. I'll still watch it now and then, but it just pushes my buttons with many directorial decisions I disagree with and what I consider to be absolutely terrible battle choreography. I don't actually mind the story choices- they are bold, for sure.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2019 ---

You pointed to two things I really like as well. The tone of Luke in the R2 reunion is pitch perfect.

 

I just asked a friendly question. How did I dismiss your opinion?

I've said this a million times and the data backs it up. The movie really isn't the divisive. The overwhelming number of people and fans who saw it like it.

The difference for this film versus TFA is that there's a minority that really hates it and a minority that really loves it. It's kind of strange in that way. Most fans and the audience agree that Attack of the Clones wasn't very good. The Last Jedi we have a situation where most people and critics like it, but there's a group that really hates it. I'm not surprised that people are still complaining a year later because there's such a disconnect. I'll be curious what happens in 10 year when people look back.

 

At this point it's Shrodinger's SW. Your theory may be right and there's only a small minority who didn't like it and are vocal about it. That said, it's equally possible that there's a silent majority who didn't like it and only a minority of those are passionate or stubborn enough to not just walk away from the franchise like the rest. Most likely it's a mix of both, in which case SW will have lost a significant portion of its base, but will still be profitable enough to continue making movies well into the future. We'll all have a better idea when the numbers come out for IX, then as you say, ten years down the road when people look back at it.

Personally, I think a lot hinges on how IX goes. If IX is a good movie and corrects some of TLJ's issues (not necessarily retcon's, but adding exposition, world building ect..) then it could salvage the trilogy. If IX doubles down on TLJ's style and makes the world feel small and doesn't offer exposition, I think the entire saga and brand can suffer mightily.

I think there are a lot of fans who are on the fence right now. I don't think TLJ was as widely loved as you might think, I think fans are giving the franchise the benefit of the doubt that they can wrap it up with a satisfying conclusion that addresses the issues. I hope JJ can bring it home.

 

It wasn't my intention to start a debate about the loud minority. The data is clear. Whether or not people want to accept it is entirely a different story.

Is it possible the scientific surveys used by Hollywood for decades are wrong? Perhaps, but when the surveys show 89% of people who saw the film liked it. That would mean the silent majority are the people who liked it.

Star Wars isn't in trouble. It'll be fine even if JJ makes a terrible film. The brand survived movies people didn't like. It'll surive movies most people like.

 

I'd be interested to see these Hollywood surveys if you can let me know where they can be found, not just for the results for Star Wars but for film in general. Thanks

 

I still don't understand the tracking situation. Snoke's ship has a device that can track without a ship being tagged, I get that, hence the plot to turn it off. However, the tactical thing to do is split the fleet, surely it can't track every ship in the galaxy. It must be focused upon one right, the flagship most likely, so you split the fleet and meet back up and a RV a few weeks later.

 

You say surely it can't...but why not? Nothing says it can't.

 

This is something that I've had a problem with when it comes to fan criticism of THE LAST JEDI. Personally? I prefer to speak for myself when it comes to opinions of the films. I do not want to assign my opinion to anyone else, whether those feelings about the movie are either positive or negative. Let everyone have their own experience with the film. I have seen such a range of reactions to the movie that I would let everyone's opinions speak for themselves.

If you loved it? Great. If you didn't have a great experience? I'm curious to hear some legitimate criticism, but within reason. Some of the arguments have gotten entirely out of hand. Some wanted the Luke Skywalker that they knew from the EU. Some had many preconceived notions about the direction of the story. And some people have gotten too deep into subtexts that have grown far too ugly to entertain in civil discourse. Those have become my limits in where I want to have a friendly conversation about the movie.

As for the main question? My appreciation for the movie has absolutely grown. Because it treated a significant segment of the audience like adults and presented complicated motivations like fear, regret, shame and responsibility. I've grown with the saga, from when I saw ANH in the theater in '77 at the age of 5 to being 40+ years down the road now. I appreciate that it has grown with me.

 

Are you talking about the data that shows TLJ made a lot of money in the box office or that it sold a lot of DVDs. I saw TLJ twice in theaters (second times in hopes it would get better) and bought the Blu Ray to add to my collection. That being said I thought the movie was terrible. But I saw it multiple times because its star wars. I bought it because its star wars and I wanted to add it to my collection. But that doesn't mean I thought it was good. So data isn't everything. Especially when it comes to something like star wars where if my 5 year old daughter was directing it, it would still make money.

 

Why would you put that much money and time into something you think is terrible?

 

That sounds disingenuous to me. People have posted tons (I myself have) on their reasons for disliking the film. None of my reasons have to do with the story choices people don't like (i.e. Luke being supposedly out of character or Snoke having no backstory). I think it was incredibly poorly directed, and aside from a small number of scenes that I really like, I think it is mostly eye candy and would like to watch it sometime with just the score, as others have done.

Anyway, I'll re-hash a couple things I hate that spring to mind:

- Leia's space walk is Star Wars jumping the shark for me, in terms of execution. I don't hate the idea at all. I just think it was executed terribly, like bad anime.
- The battle choreography makes no sense. Example: one moment on Crait, there are stormtroopers on the ground, but then where are they later, after the order has been given to destroy the resistance? Somehow Finn is able to slowly pull a heavy sled across a battlefield that took relatively fast skimmers a long time to cross, with an only recently (partially?) recovered shoulder/back, on a white background and no one can stop him?
- Pretty much as soon as they get introduced in the early battle, the bomber ships are all destroyed. We don't get to know their pilots, and they basically act as a bunch of gasoline cans to make us feel sad or something. The way they get destroyed is silly - they are so close that they explode into each other? Space is huge. That makes no sense, and there's a reason it never really happened before in SW battles.

 

A valid criticism is obviously subjective. These are valid points to you and that's fine. If something bothers you then it bothers you. I don't think this type of stuff can really be debated. We've never seen these type of bombers before. They fly close together and in battle things like this can happen.

For those that have seen Avengers Infinity War there's a scene early in the film where one of the villains has his arm cut off by transporting. This would been useful during the final act with Thanos, but they don't do it. There's probably a million ways to explain this, but it's not even necessary and it doesn't bother me. There's plenty of things a person can complain about in a film if they're determined.

 

I agree with you and usually don't partake in speaking for others. In this case I speak for those around me, anecdotal if you will, who think as I do, and I'm not talking about those in this forum. My family and friends who liked and loved SW have lost their mojo since TLJ. None that I know have gone to Rotten Tomatoes or anywhere on line to voice their dislike. They seem to just have drifted away with an attitude something like "It was a good ride while it lasted." kind of attitude. They may go watch IX if it looks good, but they didn't like TLJ, so I'd say it's around 50/50 if they do go watch it. A good PR campaign and a good movie could very well change that. However the poster I was addressing was speaking for the fan base as well? Does that bother you in the same way? I simply offered an alternate possibility, and I did try to be diplomatic about it.

To be honest, as soon as I pressed enter I regretted it. As I said, I don't usually partake in this kind of discourse. I find those who regularly engage in this discourse simply use the numbers that support their argument and ignore all others. It ends up being circular and in the end, pointless. In the end, if IX makes over 2 billion and doubles down on TLJ and I hate it, will I suddenly like it because it made 2 billion? No. By the same token, if it makes 500 mil and you love it, will you suddenly dislike the ST? I would assume not. Therefor, pointless.

If this debate was done in a more light hearted manner, with friendly bets and such, I'd be more encouraged to partake. As it is, some people have staked too much on their reputation or their belief is so fragile to be able to have some fun with it. That's my issue with this debate. If you believe in your view so completely, why not just laugh about the disagreement and tell the doubters to put their "money" where their mouth is, so to speak? Why can't we just have fun with it instead of making it personal or taking offence? It is after all, just a movie.

 

I'm not sure what there's to bet on? If JJ makes a poor movie it will be panned by critics and audiences. It won't make as much money as TLJ. There's no reason to get defensive are upset.

The numbers are what they are... those that aren't emotionally invested in liking or hating this film would simply look at the same data and draw the same conclusion.

That consensus never changed. There was never any data to suggest anything else. Since there was no data people have simple blamed Solo (a very troubled film) as evidence.

This is 100% true, but I'd clarify... I really love statistics/polling/survey science. If someone had some real data supporting a massive backlash I'd be the first person here to support it.

 

My statement about "within reason" is based on some of the things I mentioned that you did not quote:
-The attacks on the film for having a political subtext (this is something all Star Wars films have had back to the beginning. Ask George)
-The personal attacks on creators (actors, Rian Johnson, etc)
-Arm chair directing and screen writing.


The bomber attack on the First Order dreadnaught was something that we had not seen before in Star Wars. Did we get some sense of who the crews were? Just barely. But then this was not the attack on the first Death Star where the pilots of Red and Gold squadron had some time flying from Yavin IV to the Death Star where we could get a sense of who they were. This was a delaying action, intended to keep the First Order at bay during the evacuation from D'Qar. The First Order was upon the Resistance quickly given how close they had dropped out of hyperspace to the Raddus.

Some of what we saw in the battle was from the playbook George gave us in ANH. When George was conceptualizing the ANH space battle he drew upon archival WWII aerial combat footage. And the look of the bombers was straight out of that WWII stylebook: the large windows of the cockpits, the oxygen masks, the ball turrets, the bomb bays. The tactics of the bombers were also straight out of that WWII European theater aerial combat school of thought: a flight of bombers in formation heading for a single target, attempting to concentrate their attack. What happened in WWII was a lot like what we saw - the bombers flew their formamation. The TIE Fighters swarmed around them as the gunners on board the bombers attempted to defend against them, and the X-wings and A-wings flew escort duty. What happened to the bombers was tragic, and not unlike what happened to a lot of those WWII bomber crews. Losses among those crews in WWII were very high.

And then there's the point of how this impacted the story. The Resistance military took a major hit during the evacuation of D'Qar. The bomber fleet was wiped out and their crews completely lost. Many fighter pilots were lost, too. And it was because Poe Dameron recklessly engaged the First Order despite Leia's call for them to withdraw. Was Poe overconfident following their success during the battle at Starkiller base? Perhaps. The lesson in knowing when to strategically withdraw was lost upon Poe, who simply wanted to fight. Leia had the wisdom to know that some battles are won and lost before they're even fought, and that the personnel of the Resistance were among their most important assets.

 

Having a device that can track every ship in the galaxy? I realise Star Wars is science fiction, but come on it would be plain stupid in terms of power and the direction of the story.

 

Didn't say "every ship".
The Resistance fleet is small. They have the starting coordinates for those specific ships.
We don't know exactly how the tracker works. It could easily be based on knowing the starting point and tracing from there. Maybe it is only one. Maybe it's 5. We don't know.

 

I did before.

Sorry, but its poor tactics. Yes it could be based on starting point, as suggest in TESB, but a number of ships being pursed in this manner don't do several jumps before realising and then limping ahead because there is no option. You split the moment you realise and regroup at an ERV. You could split the fleet and jump to areas of high traffic. The ST has made the Star Wars galaxy small again with poor storytelling. At least the outlandish Starkiller base is plausible in drawing off the plasma from the star before a mass aimed ejection.

 

But again, you are applying YOUR rules and decisions. They didn't have the fuel to jump then jump again. That's explicitly stated. They realized as soon as they came out of hyperspace. They didn't have the fuel to jump again.

You are really gonna go down the road of "drawing plasma from a star and not incinerating yourself or killing all nearby life by creating a drastic shift in gravity and radiation" is more plausible than "zomg they cant track multiple ships! Impossibru!!!!"

Okay. You have a good day. I don't see this going anywhere constructive.

 

Wow - not sure why you're so agree over an opinion on a film

I'm pretty sure they had jumped more than once before running out of fuel, but have checked. Poe says if we jump again we will run out of fuel. So choices are to split the fleet on one last jump and try then to ERV at a later point, or limp along till you haven't the fuel to do anything but hide along route if something comes along. Pretty desperate. Think it's dumb to be honest.

My reference to Starkiller Base was more that it was plausible than tracking multipe ships across a Galaxy, you do know how big a Galaxy might be and how many other ships are going around in it. Starkiller's problems, though vast, pale in difference IMO.

The title of the thread was had opinions changed, and its a no from me with one point being the tactics are woefully bad for a plausible story. Sorry that you gotten angry over it.