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SPOILER Hawkeye (2021)

Discussion in 'Disney/LFL' started by cawatrooper, Dec 1, 2021.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Hmm, reading through everyone's comments reminded me that I do like this episode (more on that later).

    I just really wish production would quit with the sensationalism. There was the quote about how Episode 5 would "Break the internet", and I'm really not sure that was a good call. I think people's minds start racing when they hear stuff like that- would Daredevil appear? Crossover with No Way Home? Defenders cameos?

    No... it's a still image of a character that we've already pretty much seen and confirmed episodes ago. In fact, I think his tease in Episode 3 was a lot more impactful, if not only because it was both in person and more of a surprise.

    It's cool he's back, don't get me wrong. But it just really felt like the moment was heavily oversold.

    However, I think I let that ending sour the episode for me since I watched it. There's still a lot of good there!

    - The way that we saw the Snap/Blip from a victim's perspective was wild. I really liked how that was done.

    - I'm starting to really enjoy Grylls and Hawkeye's friendship

    - Yelena and Kate's scenes together were amazing.

    - Clint Batmanning people as Ronin was a pretty cool and unique action scene for the MCU. We rarely see stealth stuff anymore, and this was pretty well done. Almost reminded me of the Nolan flicks.

    - While I was underwhelmed by Kingpin's photo, I did enjoy that we finally got confirmation that Kate's mother is a villain (or at least more involved than she seems). I was guessing Madame Masque all season, but I feel like we'd have seen her with a mask here... but maybe not, as that would've caused issues with recognizing her. Wonder who she is, though?

    - On a similar note, I am really enjoying Jack's character. I really hope he is just a slightly pompous, lovable idiot.
     
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  2. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I mean, if certain movie theories are to be believed...well, several of us will know by tomorrow regardless. Still, I agree with a lot of what you say.

    While I do find Hawkeye's reveal at Kingpin to be underwhelming, I think Kingpin himself is less of a win for the show and more of a win for fans who've wanted him back or know his character. It's a meta-win, not a normal win, much like Zack Snyder's Justice League.
    As for Jack, I did like him this episode, but the dude is still shady as all get-out. Having the candy, lying/downplaying his sword skills, and Armand III's death are all things that need to be tied up, and he's the only one who ties them up. Sloan Ltd may be a shell company that Eleanor uses, but Jack still has a nasty part to play in this final episode I believe...unless Eleanor is going to take up the moniker of Swordsman in the MCU, and Jack is a Red Herring. (Not impossible, and certainly not the first time either.)
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Interesting, I hadn't thought of Eleanor being the real Swordsman.

    I think she's been aware that someone (if not necessarily Kate and Clint) are investigating her, and is likely trying to pin it on Jack. Could be why he's digitally tied to Sloan (that's in Eleanor's own virtual database anyway, right?), why she may have given him candy that's tied to Armand, etc. And him downplaying his sword abilities could just be chalked up to him trying to warm Kate up to him by letting her win- though a bit ill-advised considering she'd be upset if she knew he was holding back.

    Could be he's actually a sinister dude, but I'm still of the opinion that he's just a clueless scapegoat for Eleanor. Maybe that's even what attracted her to him in the first place.
     
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  4. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    What really annoys me is when fans complained about the Netflix Marvel series (13 episodes long) were too long, too many filler episodes, which I didn't agree with, not filler for me. Now we're getting 6-7 episodes with these new series, now fans are complaining that the series are too short, not enough character development. :confused: Fans have the worst and annoying criticisms, I hope the streamers stop listening to toxic fans, because obviously they are... the Book of Boba Fett I think is about 7-8 episodes and I believe Hawkeye with only 6 episodes will carry over to Echo, but we will see...
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I've been in both camps, although I don't usually consider myself a toxic fan. (And I completely understand your annoyance with the complaints!) I found several of the Netflix shows to be too long for the story they wanted to tell. The longer they went on, the more unfocused they became. Lux Cage Season 1 was a good example, as was Jessica Jones in several episodes. However, the reverse is true too - the longer Iron Fist's first season went on, the better it became.
    Meanwhile, the first few MCU D+ shows suffer from production issues that are visible to all. These are absolutely understandable, but it makes it hard to NOT say "it should have been longer" when it's plain as day that there was stuff cut, and the show in fact was planned to be longer.
    THAT BEING SAID, most of the MCU D+ shows are about the right length for the story they want to tell. WandaVision, What If, and Hawkeye are the smoothest examples of that. FATWS could have used another episode or two, but Loki is the only one that was FAR too short for the story they were trying to tell. Again, understandable (although for different reasons this time), but still a problem.

    Hawkeye has not skimped on any character development, nor has it been too short IMO. I do wish the episodes were longer, but the episode count and coverage has been absolutely perfect for the story being told
     
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  6. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    It's ironic you bring up Luke Cage, also known as Power Man! I was too, but I decided not to mention it. I've been a fan of Luke Cage for many years, and I enjoyed the Netflix series very much so. My fellow co-workers enjoyed it as well. We talked about the score/music, the Harlem NYC vibe, a superhero that went through the plights we encounter everyday, for me, that series did not contain filler episodes or whatever... yet to my dismay, the fans disliked the series, and you consider it a good example of what went wrong... Films are subjective, so to each their own.

    The fans Favorite show was undoubtedly Daredevil. I've been a Daredevil fan since the 1980's, when Frank Miller was writing and illustrating that book, classic run, anyway, I enjoyed the show but I noticed that a few scenes and episodes dragged, and none of the fans complained. It's the best Netflix Marvel show according to them.

    For me, Iron Fist had blatant issues, but I still enjoyed the show nonetheless. I guess I'm bias, I grew up reading all those Marvel comic books, especially Jessica Jones when her comic book series was titled Alias, written by the great Brian Michael Bendis, who created Miles Morales, for his daughter who he adopted, because he wanted her to read about superheroes that looked like her; nevertheless, the toxic fan base dislike Bendis as a writer ( I wonder why? when he went to work for DC comics the toxic fan base said he ruined Superman ). The Punisher, for me, was really well done, they chose the right actor to portray him and every episode was well written and directed
     
    #26 Rogues1138, Dec 17, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2021
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  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I think you're misreading my purpose here. I'm not saying Luke Cage was a bad show or even using it as an example of what went wrong with the Netflix shows - I really enjoyed it as well! I liked the themes, the grounded nature of the show, and how it was really the first live-action superhero show where I felt heard as a black man. I also found it enjoyable for the same reasons you did. But the first season lost focus for me personally during the second half of Season 1. Instead of one compelling villain, we had one crazy villain who couldn't live up to the first one, and the story of an antagonist controlled from the shadows by someone new who I couldn't find a reason to care about. Cottonmouth was a FAR scarier and FAR more compelling villain than Diamondback, and while Cottonmouth's loss in the show was absolutely his own fault and certainly deserved, the next villains didn't really carry the rest of the season well. (Don't worry, the Defenders crossover show suffered from this exact same problem, as to did other shows like Arrow and AoS.) A shorter season may have cut the show before it started to lose focus, and then could have refocused with the new villains and a different theme during that second season. I believe that the length of a story should be exactly as long as it needs to be, and I felt that the story for Season 1 was told in that first arc. That is why I brought the show up. However, I brought up Iron Fist as well in order to prove the opposite, that the length of a show can work as an advantage as well. There are pros and cons, but please don't read that as me disliking the show at all.

    And all of the above doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to see the other characters eventually, but they weren't as necessary for me in that first season.

    Don't leave out one of the best non-616 Spider-Man runs in Ultimate Spider-Man, the comic series from which Miles originated from. And the comic series that got me into comics as a youth if I'm being honest. Although I've always liked superheroes, so Bendis doesn't get credit for that one!
    Bendis' Superman run isn't one I can speak on, but I HAVE read Naomi Season 1 and his Young Justice runs though, and both felt very Bendis-y (in a good way!), if you catch my drift. Young Justice also felt a lot like the series of old, which was nice. Now there was a twist I was really hoping they'd follow through on, and instead they pulled a punch. But outside of that it's fine.
    As for why he's gotten a bad rep, I have some theories, but I honestly don't care enough about writers' reps most of the time to think about it. If I like a writer's work in the past, I'll check out some of there other stuff. Sometimes it works out (me adoring Superman Unchained after reading Scott Snyder's Batman run), other times it doesn't (me not really liking Jackson Lanzing's first Harbinger coming, despite adoring Dark One). Although I will admit I usually avoid Frank Miller's stuff, if only because his Batman comics have given me the comic-equivalent of food poisoning for his work. Someday I'll probably read his DD run. Maybe.

    I noticed it too, but more for Season 2 than Season 1. I think Season 1 is the best first season of a superhero show that I've seen, and I've seen my fair share. I'm still working my way through Season 3. (I wasn't super interested in the Netflix shows by the time it came out; I started watching it earlier this year, but it was too dark for me at the time.) That being said, I agree with the fan read here. Daredevil is the best show of them to me. It has the most compelling villains, easily the best action of the bunch, the strongest soundtrack and intro theme, relatively competent characters who don't drive you up the wall TOO much (outside of Karen? I think that was her name. Outside of her.), and is overall the most consistent in its quality and superheroics.

    Oh absolutely, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. Again, I enjoyed it the longer it aired, showing a contrasting viewpoint to Luke Cage (which I still enjoyed more overall), but the issues can't be avoided.


    I didn't start reading comics in earnest until I was a teenager, right around the time Civil War came out. So to me, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones were already a nice couple with a child on the way. I knew her backstory of course, but I didn't care about it so much as I did her future. I wasn't a fan of the woman who was deep in her dark and self-destructive ways and had this cynical outlook on the world. It made the show a chore to watch at times, because of how pessimistic the show felt. Yes, I knew how much it meant to others to see this expressed, but this wasn't the version of the character I wanted - I wanted to see the Jessica Jones who had moved forward and found, if not peace, at least acceptance and love and was doing her best to help out the community and other kids with superpowers.
    Now, all of that said, I think the casting for Jessica was perfect for their interpretation, and I liked Luke with Night Nurse aka Ahsoka aka I can't remember her name right now better - but Night Nurse had chemistry with literally everyone, so that's not a surprise.


    Absolutely!
     
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  8. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Episode 5 was great. I hope they show where Hawkeye explains Yelena the truth about Natasha's death. Pretty cool to see Kingpin finally being revealed.

    Seeing Matt Murdock showing up in this movie makes Kingpin appearance much sweeter. Curious if the Netflix Daredevil will be apart of the MCU?
     
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  9. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I'm certainly treating it as such until something else says otherwise!
     
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  10. greysaber

    greysaber Clone

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    I think that's what they're trying to hint at, though idk if they could continue the show on another platform
     
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  11. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    Great post, Frank Miller's DD run is as iconic as Chris Claremont and John Byrnes' Dark Phoenix run, maybe more so. They'll keep adapting those storylines until they can get it right. they haven't done it justice yet. Netflix's Daredevil series came close but Frank Miller's run remains the best IMHOP, and yes Karen was annoying at times. with age Frank Miller has fallen off especially with his recent Dark Knight storylines, but for me he is still a legend.

    Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are my favorite Marvel couple. I didn't like how their relationship ended up in the Netflix series so much so I still haven't watched Luke Cage season 2 or Jessica Jones season 2. I might eventually, considering I followed those heroes in their respective books.

    We'll see next week what version of the big boss we'll get. Is it a new MCU version or the Netflix version? Kevin Feige wasn't fond of the Netflix series so we'll see what he'll do going forward. I'm a Marvel Unlimited subscriber, currently reading the Hawkeye comic book series the Hawkeye series is based on. I can't collect everything, so Marvel Unlimited gives me access to books I wouldn't normally pick up. STAY FROSTY

    Cheers,
    Rogue
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I wouldn't want the service to give in to the haters, but I do kinda understand where they're coming from.

    In my opinion, at least, the Disney shows are much better paced. Episodes and storylines are much tighter, weirder stuff is happening, and... yes, there's a lot of fanservice. Not to mention that the D+ shows not only have halfish the amount of episodes, but these episodes tend to be shorter than the Netflix ones, too.

    I'm enjoying the D+ shows, and wouldn't begrudge anyone enjoying the Netflix ones... but it does feel like there could be a happy medium somewhere.
     
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  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Hawkeye ended exactly where it needed to and exactly how it needed to. Even the mid-credit scene was amazing! I know my family will LOVE it.

    I am a little amused at the fact my original ending prediction (which I'm pretty sure most people speculated the same on) happened as opposed to my revised version, but I do think aspects of my revised version did happen - Clint and Yelena did grieve together, after all. And I'm sure Yelena will make it to the Barton homestead eventually.
     
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  14. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    You mean the musical, right.
     
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  15. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I do!
     
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  16. RockyRoadHux

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    @NinjaRen and I have watched the first episode today, so far we like it, going to watch to the second tonight or tomorrow.
     
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  17. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Now two episodes in and I think this show is the best Marvel content which I've seen so far.
     
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  18. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    We're going to watch the final episode tonight. Had way more fun watching Hawkeye than watching Boba. The action is silly but fun. The design and look is far more appealing, the colours really pop and the dialogue and the jokes have a real feel to it.
     
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