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Help me love RotS :)

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Angelman, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Hey all,

    This thread is not an excuse to crap on the RotS or the PT. While I have significant issues with those films (Ep.II & III in particular, but also with Ep.I), this thread is made specifically to help me, and others like me, to love RotS, not to preach about any perceived flaws. Nonetheless, to establish context I feel I need to note my own main issues/over-arching problems with RotS:
    --The romance is iffy (and suffers from the worst acting)
    --The slapstick humor takes me out of the movie (R2-D2 & the super battle droids, for instance)
    --CGI stunts (the horrendous elevator escape scene in Act 1)
    --CGI action in general
    --Anakin’s fall to darkness (all 2 ½ scenes of it), which should be the crux of the entire PT series, falls flat
    --The twirly, ballet choreographed, lightsaber duel between Anakin & Obi-Wan has zero stakes and interest for me
    --Same goes for Yoda vs. Sidious in the Senate
    --Anakin’s Frankenstein transformation into Vader. (This SHOULD work, but for some reason it doesn’t, again, for me)

    The reason I think it is important to mention these “faults” are that if, say… the RotS romance is what makes the film for you it won’t help me love the film, sadly. I wonder instead if there’s some deeper sensibility or understanding that can help me love Ep.III? Something that can help me see it in a new and better light? In short, I need to learn to love :)


    And just to balance things out, let me add some things that I do like:
    --The opening space battle, while too long and talky, is good
    --The opera scene is all right
    --The varactyl is awesome!
    --Obi-Wan vs. Grievous is fine. (I don’t like the Grievous character, but this duel works ‘cause Kenobi rules it so)
    --Order 66, which elevates the sorely lacking drama of the film. Good stuff

    As I have mentioned elsewhere, the 1st Act of RotS is probably better than what I tend to give the film credit for :)


    So there we have it, a rather self-centered plea to help me love Ep.III. The reason I post this is because SO MANY Star Wars fans rank RotS among their favorite films in the franchise. Meanwhile, I have it at second to last… Clearly, we’re viewing the film differently, and I want to love it like you guys do. I want to learn to view RotS right!

    Perhaps the core issue here is a generational thing? That for me, having wondered since the 80s what Anakin’s fall was about, feel the film doesn’t deliver, whereas people who grew up with the PT feels that it absolutely does deliver on this? I don’t know… I could be wrong. Perhaps I’m just too dumb and old fashion… In any case, I want to be converted ;)

    Thanks for all help and understanding, my wonderful Star Wars family ❤
     
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  2. Pizza Time

    Pizza Time Rebel General

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    Think of the emotional weight of this film. It's loved by many for how hard it hits on a first viewing. It's dark. Anakin shows no mercy in his actions, and we see the whole Jedi Order fall. We want the inevitable to be avoided, we want Anakin to live happy. But we know he can't, he turned to save the one he loved, only to be left scarred, pained and suffering. It showed a SW film could be dark. It gives you shocks at the power of the Dark Side. In the end, it's all about a fall to the dark side, and how everything was torn apart.
    So it's different. That's why me and other fans love it. It's a dark film, the prequel equivalent of ESB.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    My advice, don't try to force yourself to love/enjoy something you don't really do. There's bound to be too much out there that is genuinely something you love.
     
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  4. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    I'd say one thing you can do is think about all with with broader strokes, focusing less on the details of the story and dialogue. Think of it as an interpretation of a story, rather than the actual story.

    For instance, what's important about the love story is that Anakin went away with Padme and they fell in love. Think of it like It's a passage in a book which reads "Anakin escorts Padme back to Naboo where they fall in love", rather than focus on the delivery in the movie - and/or imagine it as a silent movie.

    One way I sometimes think of the whole saga is that it's an IN-UNIVERSE series of movies and/or stories, told and adapted and interpreted by different story tellers. Some tell it better than others.

    Staying with that idea, you can imagine that maybe less is know about that period of history - the Empire probably destroyed lots of the historical records! - so it's had to be pieced together from the anecdotal accounts of those who were around at the time, and then reconstructed with a large dollop of best guesses and speculation. Like all historical events turned into movies! So who really knew exactly what happened between Anakin and Padme on Naboo in their private moments? All we know is that they fell in love and got married in secret. And we know that last bit because Artoo was there (so was 3po, but he had his memory wiped...).

    In a way, that's the premise of Star Wars... somebody is telling us about events which took place 'a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.' It's bound to be getting told with story-teller embellishments and might not always be altogether factually accurate :p Tell yourself the bits you don't think are done very well are as a result of the storyteller not quite getting it right or not really knowing what truly happened.
     
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  5. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    The 1st thing that jumped out at me was that the opening Space Battle was to long. What? I am the opposite. It should have been longer. Really since ROTJ I have wanted another long space battle and in particular the type of stuff where pilots are talking back and forth helping each other. etc. Rogue One almost did it, but nothing truly has.

    Amazingly one of the things I took away from visiting Galaxies Edge last weekend is that the new Star Tours and the in space scenes in Rise of the Resistance are truly the closest to what I was missing. Lots of chatter between pilots, tracking of cameras following fighter craft as they moved in and out taking out Ties or being shot by Ties. I want this so much.

    Rise of Skywalker had a cool aesthetic in the battle at the end, but little of the watch a single fighter or a fighter with wingmen working together. Like would have loved to see fighters and falcon working together more and having Wedge chattering with Poe and others.
     
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  6. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Thanks guys. Great feedback, all :)

    Total cop-out, but it might be the only viable option, I'm afraid... :p

    This is 100% how I relate to RotS, and the PT. I like their story (minus the dozen or so places where it breaks OT canon *shrug* ), and I like the idea of the characters, and the grand scale of the politics etc. etc., I just don't like watching how it is presented in the movie. I want to tap into what all the young'uns feel when watching RotS, instead of sitting around cringing at the screen like a grumpy old man yelling at clouds ;)
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I wouldn't call it a cop out. I'd call it being good to yourself. Forcing yourself into something you don't like for no real reason (a good reason is eating gross veggies because they're good for you no matter how gross they are) is only going to be a detriment to you in the long run. It's undue stress. This isn't just about Star Wars, but about anything in life really.

    I don't like the PT, but I don't try to force myself to like it either.
     
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  8. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I'm totally with you on the weird, slapstick first act. It just feels... awkward.

    Now, I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I like to think of the first half of the movie as intentionally strange, and here's why:

    Personally, I've always found that the second half of the movie, starting with Palpatine's arrest, to immediately take a stark and somber tone, in contrast with the more awkward first half. The exception to this would be the opera scene, where Anakin and Palpatine talk.

    My theory (or headcanon, at least) is that the first half of the movie, with all its goof and gaffs, is meant to be almost a nostalgic take on silly Star Wars, the halcyon days of Anakin and Obi Wan just messing around. It's also intended to show the utter cluelessness of the Jedi in their final days- we see Obi Wan spouting silly one-liners and them fighting in cheesey action sequences while the audience knows full well the doom that is coming. Perhaps its meant to be unnerving, as the doomsday clock continues to tick down, with only Palpatine knowing the truth. That's why even in the beginning on Greivous's ship, there isn't even a soundtrack playing (such as that bad elevator scene that you mentioned) for the majority of the action- it's Star Wars action, but also a shell of what it usually is, given the darkness looming, and William's soundtrack isn't even there to comfort us.

    And I'm quite probably giving Lucas waaaaaay too much credit here, but I've found that personally I find these answers satisfying enough.

    edit:

    Also, to answer address some of your other dislikes:

    I mean, I'm not gonna stand here and try to convince you that Anakin and Padme's romance is good, because it's often not. But I think there are a few pretty good moments to appreciate here.

    Anakin's reaction to Padme's pregnancy is pretty creepy- he says he's happy, but you can't but feel something else there, too. I don't think Hayden gets near enough credit for that scene.

    Second, his ruminations on Padme's apparent fate before going to save Palpatine always sticks with me.

    But yeah, otherwise it's basically Tommy and Lisa from The Room. EVERYBODY BETRAY ME, I'M FED UP WITH THIS WORLD. :p

    Some of the CGI has aged really badly, and some was never good to begin with. But I do think you need to remember that this was from about fifteen years ago. To the film's credit, there are some really good effects, too.

    Try this- next time you watch the movie, during the opening half hour focus all of your attention on the space battle instead of Anakin/Obi Wan. Not only does it look a lot better, but.... I mean, I want that movie, a clone armada fleet vs seperatists. Someone greenlight that ASAP.


    I've had a lot of discussions on this before, but have you watched The Clone Wars?

    While ROTS really does drop the ball here as a film itself, TCW kinda fixes it pretty well.

    Not saying that TROS deserves any of that credit, but if we're talking about how you can enjoy this film more, that might be something to consider.


    The twirly stuff... yes. It's bad.

    But next time you watch the film, keep an eye out during the Mustafar scene for choreography that you do like. There are actually some pretty weighty moments, too. And almost every time they stop and talk to each other is pretty solid.


    Yeah, it's kinda silly. But the idea of a last ditch effort to oust a tyrannical emperor in his own senate... well, it's found a new appeal in me lately.

    Have you read the Vader comics from a few years ago?

    I think this is another one of those cases where the transmedia helps expand on something from the films.

    In this case, I think seeing Vader in his armor is cool, but we get like 20 seconds of it. It almost feels like a teaser, more than anything. By following the comic, we get some decent follow up.
     
    #8 cawatrooper, Jan 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
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  9. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    FWIW: I have always preferred the ROTS novel over the film.
     
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  10. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    True. This could have helped to build up suspense.
     
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  11. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras Jedi General
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    The post you quoted isn't from this thread
    This thread is about Revenge of the Sith not the rise of Skywalker

    Sorry ignore that it I just missed it
    anyway this thread is still about ROTS & not TROS
    So let’s please try & keep this on topic.
    Thank You.
     
    #11 Addi Ras, Jan 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  12. Deukaliwn

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    Yoda lost, and admitted failure. Then the frog goes to live in a swamp, which is hilarious, and further proves he is a frog.

    I'am a heavy smoker, and that's exactly what I need. A droid, with a huge lighter.

    Padme, a.k.a. no probs you kill babies as long as you love me, is insufferable. There is no escape, I feel you. Even the medical droid couldn't stand talking to her, and started mumbling mumba mumba, to avoid conversation. Just think, that she will soon die, so it's ok.

    They got better. Come on. How can we forget :


    On a serious note, the musical score is incredible. Also, think that it's perhaps the only time something happens to Obi-Wan hair. They actually moved a bit.

    Next time you see it, add Vader's effort to kill Palpatine with the Force. So he isn't just reacting to a chocolate croissant with little or no chocolate, but actually trying to kill someone in the same time. If you don't want to go dark, then laugh it out. It always reminds me of my daughter making her first steps, and after 10 minutes arriving at the ball (placed 3 feet way). Then my older son, kicks the ball to the other side, which means another 10 minute trip. Noooooo, ahaha.
     
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  13. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Thanks again all. This is like a RotS hater intervention! I need this :)

    I like your take on this being a setup for going darker in the second half of the film. That’s interesting; a bit meta, but interesting. I’ll definitely keep an eye out for that!


    I did see TCW back in the day. Didn’t like much of it, but some of it is pretty solid. Again, everybody loves this so I must have watched it wrongly, heh heh. I am going to watch it again this year when I re-watch the PT for the first time in a few years. I hope to change my mind on the PT this time around :D The TRoS point is also very good.


    No, I have not read the comics, but if it comes out in paperback at some point I would very much like to. I’m waaaay behind on the NuCanon!


    That is a very good point. Perhaps I should give to book a go. Does this go for TPM & AotC as well?


    I always want to go darker
     
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  14. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    Common trait among the moderators. Strange people you are.

    I guess you have read this, but a quick reminder of something dark, to get through the day:
    1.JPG
     
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  15. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    ...or you could try seeing Revenge Of The Sith, the rest of the prequels, and indeed even the OT through the eyes of William Shakespeare, by reading the likes of "The Phantom Of Menace", "The Clone Army Attacketh" and "Tragedy Of The Sith's Revenge".

    Note: Not actually written by William Shakespeare, but by Ian Doescher.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    What? That quote is from this thread... I think @KeithF1138 was referring to the scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan in space. In that scene they were working and chatting with each other. This would have been nice to see in TROS too. (@KeithF1138, please correct me if I quoted you wrong).

    @RockyRoadHux agreed with this statement. So do I. The opening space battle of ROTS is great. It's nicely paced and the character actually interact with each other while we didn't see much of that TROS.

    ----------------------------------------

    Even though I think the last 20 minutes of ROTS are quite rushed, there is alot to love:

    1) Great opening with an exciting space battle

    2) the best lightsaber duel in the PT- and no, it's not Anakin vs Obi-Wan, but:


    3) the fall of the relationship/friendship between Obi-Wan and Anakin
    [​IMG]

    4) Ian McDiarmid and Ewan McGregor

    6) Order 66


    7) the score - IMO John Williams' score lacks in the ST (it's still good though)
     
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  17. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras Jedi General
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    Right & I acknowledged that I missed it & made a mistakes (I’m only human).
    Just as you missed my latter edit.

    I just don’t get why you have to bring TROS into it.
    I actually like that opening scene from ROTS & having that chatter between Obi-Wan & Anakin is a lot to do with it .but I don’t see how not having something similar in TRS has a effect on enjoying Revenge of the Sith.
    I also agree with most of you other points about this film.

    Also @Angelman the novelisation of the 3 PT films are definitely worth checking out.
     
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  18. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I don't have to expect an edit for a post which was made four hours ago, only because you are a mod and thus can edit a post whenever you want to. So, it's not my fault.

    One form of explaining that something is good is to compare it to another work. This is called "consult as reference".
     
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  19. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    I recall there's a sequence in the Phantom Menace novelisation where Anakin encounters a young tusken raider, which felt like a significant moment that part of me wished was in the film, especially in light of his actions in AotC.

    RotS novel is worth a read as well, as it's more than just an adaptation - some of it is reinterpretation and offers more insight. One of the things I vaguely remember and which I quite liked is there was a chunk of it which was events as seen through the in-universe media coverage, or at least we get to see how the news is reporting events. Made me wish there was a film or TV episode which was done in that way (which is not original of course - other franchises have done that sort of thing).
     
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  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    The 1st paragraph I was referring to ROTS and to be clear I thought ROTS needed more pilot to pilot chatter and working together before the buzzdroids end up on Obi fighter.

    In my opinion none of the films after ROTJ do enough of the pilot to pilot chatter/working together. RO got the closest. So many of them seems to me as wider view of just space battle scenes and less dog fighting which I love so much. At Galaxies Edge the new Star Tours and Rise of Resistance have really cool dog fighting segments.
     
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