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Holdo and Rose - was there a contradiction?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    I'm interested to hear some thoughts on the moral decisions made by Holdo and Rose.
    I believe there was a contradiction in the movie between these characters.

    I'll lay it out-
    Holdo chooses to sacrifice herself so that the resistance can have a chance to escape--a possible motive could be that she loved the resistance and the cause and was willing to sacrifice her life for them to live.
    (I'm not going into detail about why the decision in the first place may have been unnecessary, take it as it was in the movie for this thread please.)

    Finn, in my eyes, was doing the exact same thing as Holdo when Rose stopped him. She then gave her speech which, to me, would have made more sense in the movie if Finn had gone through with it, and the speech was given to the remaining resistance members.

    Now, the question I am posing is, does this create an intra-movie moral contradiction?

    I know that in real life, different people follow different basis' for their morality which results in differing opinions on what is right or wrong.

    Does this work in a movie? Having two different characters, do something that seems to be the opposite and portray them both as the right thing within the film?
    Was the film trying to portray Rose's actions as right?

    What are ya'lls thoughts?
    I believe that it is certainly possible to something like this is a movie, but not in the way TLJ executed it -- I also believe that the film portrayed Rose's action as right.
     
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  2. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    There is no coordination in this movie. It looks like different puzzle pieces forced to be together to design no specific pattern at the end.
     
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  3. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Helpful, insightful, on-topic.
    Great post!
     
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  4. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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    Finn's sacrifice would have been useless, since at the distance he was not going to get it in time, his ship was already breaking up, and the doors of the fortress were already being opened, that's the big difference between the sacrifice of Holdo, and that of Finn. Holdo's sacrifice if it had meaning and impact on the events, managed to save what was left of the resistance, she was on time. Finn sacrifice would have been like i said, just a waste of his life, an empty gesture, when it was too late, so his actions would have been suicide rather than a heroic sacrifice
     
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  5. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    That's not what you said, these two scenes are the opposite ? So yes, it sounds like different pieces that didn't match together and if you look closer, there are many of those in this movie.
     
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  6. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    I keep going back and forth with this movie for some of the same reasons that this thread points out. It is just all over the place. If I didn't know better I would guess that it had about 4 different directors that never spoke to each other about the plot, theme or emotion of the movie. It is a hot mess of random jumping around that never allowed me to get emotionally invested.

    ESB had three main storylines going on in the majority of the film.

    1. Hoth (The Big three)
    2. Falcon in asteroid field (Leia & Han)
    3. Dagobah (Luke)
    4. Bespin. (Leia and Han..Later Luke)

    TLJ has, several more..
    1. D'Qar orbital attack and bombing run (Poe and Leia)
    2. Ahch-to ( Luke being a nothing-burger, and Rey)
    3. Raddus and remnant fleet fleeing the First order scenes (Poe; Finn and Leia)
    4. Canto Bite (Rose and Finn)
    5. On-board the Supremacy scenes (Rey and Kylo)
    6. Crait... (Rey; Finn; Poe; Rose; Ren; Leia & Luke sacrificing himself, but not sacrificing himself...Only to later die anyway)
    Way too many storylines.
     
    #6 Crusifix, Mar 8, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  7. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    You're right, the movie was a mess and I wish it had been more focused.

    But why are you posting this here... did your read the thread?
    Did anybody here read the thread?
     
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  8. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    Crap... I meant to post in another thread. I had two windows open.. Muh bad.
     
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  9. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Hmmmm . . . the movie supported Holdo's decision to sacrifice herself so that the Resistance could make its escape. It also supported Rose's decision to interrupt Finn's decision to sacrifice himself for the Resistance's survival. So . . . yeah, contradiction.
     
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  10. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    Then Luke showed up to sacrifice himself, but kind of did but didn't. (Finally added something to this thread, LOL)

    Also, on the subject of Holdo's sacrifice being in vane, why doesn't everyone just use a ship as a weapon if it is possible. Throw a droid behind the wheel and ramp up into hyperspace...
     
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  11. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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    Resources, you cant waste them just like that... and even less when your fleet is only a handful of ships . Military economics you know? xD
     
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  12. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    Yeah, but a damn X-wing flying into a star destroyer in hyperspace would do a hell of a lot of damage. Heck, Han should have just flown the Falcon into Starkiller base's Oscillator...Roll credits.
     
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  13. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation on this forum?
     
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  14. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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    an x wing does not have a very large mass to do something against a star destroyer (with shields), but in return of the jedi we have an a wing, which crashed with the bridge of a star destroyer that lost its shields, and he destroyed it: D so you got somerthing like that
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 8, 2018 ---
    sighs, i know that i might get downvotes for this.. but here i come
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    If you're idea of winning a war is sending everyone on a suicide run, then all I do is to wish you
    [​IMG]

    In my opinion there's no contradiction. I will elaborate on that when I will rewatch the film but the gist of it is that during the battle of Crait the only thing that mattered to him was punishing the First Order, not helping the Resistance. People compare Finn's sacrifice to Holdo's, but in my opinion thematically it is closer to what Poe was doing at the beginning of the film (not obeying orders, shutting down the communication with their respective higher-ups, putting the focus on damaging the FO war effort in his dialogue, not helping the Resistance, being saved by a Tico sister and each sister touching her piece of a necklace - Rose at the beginning of the battle of Crait, Paige right at the end of the bombing run) than to what Holdo did. Am I saying that Poe's and Finn's motives were wrong? Not really. But neither were Anakin's when he tried to save Padmé. All these three men wanted to do a good thing but they did it in the most selfish and cocksure way possible.

    Additionally, let's talk about something I'm currently obsesssing about when I think about storytelling in film - setup and payoff. The Last Jedi's story revolves around setups and payoffs like no other SW film before, closely mimicking the style of storytelling used in classic Hollywood films (like Charade, which I saw just yesterday and highly recommend):
    • Holdo talking about the Resistance symbol as a source of hope -> Finn and Rose getting help from Broom Boy because of the ring with the Resistance symbol
    • Leia flying through a hologram of The Supremacy -> Holdo ramming into the ship at the exact same place
    • the Dark Side mirror beneath the temple Island on Ahch-To
    • Luke talking about standing against the First Order on his own with just a lasersword in his hand and then doing exactly that
    • DJ taking Rose's necklace because it's made of a great conductor and then using it because of its properties
    • and so on...
    and the end of the battle of Crait with Finn's failed run is also an example of a payoff of a moment that always stirs a lot of controversy - Rose taking off a saddle from a Fathier, which I'll attempt to explain, as it is important in the context of Finn's sacrifice. After the chase (which is also a payoff of a moment when we see Fathier race and the whole casino starts to shake when space horses pass) Finn and Rose reach a cliff, meaning they have nowhere else to go and they are most likely going to be caught again or maybe even die. At that specific moment something happens that everyone seems to overlook when speaking about it (I don't remember the line, so I'll be praphrasing) - Finn says that even though this the end of their adventure, it was worth going onto it, as they were able to cause some damege to these malicious casino patrons. Soon after Rose realises something and takes off the saddle from the Fathier they were riding and tells the herd to go and replies "Now it was worth it." At that moment we see what I consider to be an example of "Stortrooper mentality" - the purpose of fighting a war is to crush the enemy and cause as much damage to him/her/it as possible. Rose, at that moment, shows him that if the opressed don't gain anything from the conflict, then what's the point of fighting? I'm sure that someone will pop up and mention Broom Boy & co. and them not being saved and how that's a "plot hole", "vegan propaganda" or something, but it's not important in the context of this thread and, in my opinion, it would be like complaining that the widow from the Lesson of the widow's mite did not give more money into the treasury. Saving horses is not much, but it was the most they could have done in this moment.

    Now, how does it all relate to Finn's sacrifice? Because of "Stortrooper's mentality." Finn in that particular moment doesn't focus on helping the Resistance, he focuses on dealing damage to the First Order. Rose, on the other hand, always puts a primary focus on others and doesn't forget why she fights in the first place: not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love. Fathiers, Finn, democracy, freedom, and so on. When Holdo is left alone on the Raddus, all of the dialogue she has from that point onward is about the Resistance and the people that fight for it. "Godspeed, Rebels." Finn, when he's about to do his suicide run, never mentions the Resistance. He only talks about "them" - the First Order. "I won't let them win!" There was also some other line after Rose saved him, but I can't find it and the only bootleg version of battle of Crait doesn't contain this line, so I won't be able to recall it right now. :( It's a subtle difference, but if it had been more explicit, we would have heard "My focus is not helping the Resistance right now, but on kicking the First Order" or something sounding as bad as what I've just written. I caught it, and I'm generally bad at noticing such small details, so it did its job...

    Huh... I guess this little piece I wrote is quite elaborate, so I'm sorry to tell you that I won't expand it even more. :p In the end, that's my take on the matter. I hope that it makes you see the film that I've enjoyed so much in a more positive light. :) Pawek_13 sigining out.

    YES!!!!! Finally! A signed picture with DJ's "Maybe!!!!!"
     
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  16. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    I said have a droid pilot the vehicle in the first post, thus inferring that in the second post.
     
  17. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    That's almost what Poe does to take down the Dreadnaught right ? How many people died there ?
     
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  18. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    Or Luke doing the Trench run... or Lando and the gang flying into the core of DS2... And so on. ;)
     
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  19. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Yes but there it was needed.
     
  20. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Two different scenarios imo.

    Holdo has no alternative and had she done nothing she wouldn’t have saved anyone and the resistance would’ve been destroyed.

    Rose could see that Finn might not have even be successful and that all hope wasn’t lost anyway. She wasn’t to know that help “wouldn’t arrive” and that the resistance could escape. Even so, she acted out of faith and love. She had a point of view that you have to act out of love. And given that she and her sister placed some sort of belief in the Force (the necklace), it’s clear to see why she perhaps acted in that pure, compassionate way.

    The final point I would make is that Rose sees Finn’s importance to the Resistance. She sees that he is vital going forward. Going by her thoughts about acting out of love, essentially being compassionate - it could be a wink to how Finn could bring about a stormtrooper mutiny?

    However, it might also be that this act of hers is debated in the next film. It might be thatvthese moral and philosophical questions are raised.

    We’ll see. But it wasn’t an issue for me.
     
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