1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Holdo and Rose - was there a contradiction?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    82
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    187
    Credits:
    357
    Ratings:
    +235 / 16 / -11
    Wow, just saw that. That's great lol!
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    It's called bad writing. Showing highly succesful acts of self sacrifice (Paige, Holdo) and an act of mercy causing terrible devastation in the same movie seems very counter productive. I couldn't help but roll my eyes when I heard Rose giving her little hippie speech when her sister sacrificed herself in the beginning of the movie to save Rose's butt. However, I do have an idea for Rian and JJ to adress this issue. Since thse guys love plottwists so much how about Rose as a double agent? She worked together with DJ and deliberately sabotaged Finn on Canto bight and on Crait. She didn't let resistance members leave the Raddus because she was a self entitled prick but because she wanted them all to die on the Raddus. What a great plotwist. I bet Rian would love this genious subversion.
     
    #42 BobRoss, Mar 11, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Pessimistic Pessimistic x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2018
    Posts:
    237
    Likes Received:
    1,779
    Trophy Points:
    7,367
    Credits:
    926
    Ratings:
    +2,013 / 4 / -4
    Finn and Poe sabotaged the tracker mission and the hide-on-Crait mission when they discussied it in their open conversation infront of a shady charachter like DJ. So it's all Finn's fault and he is the double agent. When he is not a comic relief :D that would be like the biggest subversion.
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  4. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Reminds me of the Darth Jar Jar theory. The comic relief is supposed to be the bad guy. This would be a masterpiece of subversion and the laws of moviemaking clearly state that subversion automatically result in a awesome movie! You know Disney should give us a call and hire us as creative consultants for IX since we're coming up with all of these great ideas :)
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 11, 2018 ---
    How can you sacrifice yourself for selfish reasons? Per definition that doesn't really make sense.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 11, 2018 ---
    I do have my own theory why the suicide attack move worked for Holdo but won't work in the future nor in most scenarios in the past. My line of reasoing for this is pretty simple:

    Spaceships don't need to have sturdy hulls especially if they are designed to only operate in space so they primarily rely on shields to deflect damage. The Raddus is a Mon Calamari ship. In Legends, Mon Cala ships were repurposed underwater skyscrapers and submarines and thus originally designed to withstand enormous amounts of pressure. I assume this is still true in Disney Canon since Admiral Ackbar's ship is still called "Home 1". So basically a Mon Cala ship is a lot sturdier than any other ships which causes it to turn into a deadly projectile while other ships (like the one in Rogue One) don't do much damage if you hyperspace-suicide into a larger ship.

    This explanation works well for me but I don't want to write Rian's screenplay for him so I can understand why this scene confuses audiences.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Posts:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    1,450
    Trophy Points:
    6,417
    Credits:
    2,566
    Ratings:
    +2,638 / 58 / -20
    If there's one thing C-3PO's personality has shown me, is that droids also have self preservation, like any human or animal.
     
    • Wise Wise x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Posts:
    4,846
    Likes Received:
    5,499
    Trophy Points:
    87,267
    Credits:
    8,912
    Ratings:
    +10,212 / 457 / -128
    Well, just use Mon Cal ships or technology in later movies ...
     
  7. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Sure but you can always have a cop outlike they never tried something like this with a Mon Cala ship before TLJ and now the Resistance don't have any more Mon Cala ships or the FO reacted by increasing their hull strenght. Plotholes like these should be explained by the screenwriter or fixed by the storygroup, I'm only telling you how I would have done it :)
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Your idea makes sense, but I get the impression that there's no will from SW to explain anything. Moving forward we're supposed to suspend our disbelief regardless of what they do. We're expected to write our own head canon to make it work, until they subvert that and expect us to suspend our disbelief again. If we don't we're too critical of the movie or franchise.

    Which is why I've stopped writing for them. They can take time to explain it to me or I'll complain about their inconsistencies. Your theory is good, but I don't expect us to get any confirmation on it one way or another, and when it suits them, they'll make it untenable then blame you for your head canon.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
    • Cocky Cocky x 1
  9. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    2,357
    Credits:
    881
    Ratings:
    +696 / 22 / -11
    Self preservation is exactly what they have. So they would never be able to make a self sacrifice unless they were instructed specifically to do so.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    I guess with something like the GFFA, we can assume they're a group of cultures much different than our one specific Western one (or even any cultures on earth).

    We can ask why a Capitol Ship kamikaze tactic was never used before, but then wouldn't we have to ask why everything in our world doesn't exist there.

    Why don't they have Oreoes on Ach-To, to dip into green Thala Siren milk?

    Why does the GFFA apparently have an equivalent of horseracing, but we've never seen a competitive swimming event on screen?

    If "spice" is a drug, is all food in Star Wars either bland or psychedelic? :p

    Then, take into account this fact: the largest war we've seen on screen was mostly fought between droids and clones. Clearly, original organic life is held to be pretty valuable in Star Wars, even outside of the Jedi's own views. Kamikaze tactics like that may just be seen as an abomination.

    I guess if the perceived "plot hole" requires more effort to complain about than to provide a reasonable enough explanation for, I don't see much value in further discussing it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    As much as SW takes place a long time ago and far far away, they are humans who have evolved to create and replicate technology far greater than what we currently possess. So in that light, they are advanced compared to us. So it's quite possible that Oreo's have been replaced by Jawa-o's because they taste better, but we don't see a whole lot of kids in the core worlds. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they are not there, or that Jawa-O's aren't better in some fashion.

    For a species that is advanced, it isn't crazy to think they're early evolution had some parallels to our own. It's also not crazy to think that their morals are similar (usually in sci-fi's and fantasy, if something is very different, writers are sure to point it out, otherwise we, the viewers are to assume the "rest" is much like our world). So Kamikaze attacks I'm sure was a strategy long figured out by someone at some point in time in the GFFA's history. Unless I get something in IX that says otherwise, that this was the first time anyone in thousands of years of having huge ships travelling at astronomical speeds, and that has had people willing to create DS type weapons, has never thought to use this strategy and it never happened before, I'm going to go continue on the logical course that it wasn't a first.

    Your arguments are weak. That's not how fantasy works, or sci-fi. Most mundane and common things I our world are assumed to be the same in these, unless otherwise specified.
     
    • Clouded Clouded x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    That's... exactly how fantasy works...

    Fantasy cultures and technologies can, in some ways, far exceed our own. Look at the Original Trilogy, for instance. They have hyperspace tech, weaponized lasers, advanced droid technology. Yet, in some ways, our real world tech has surpassed them.

    Even something like Game of Thrones or The Elder Scrolls has stuff that blurs the lines between technology and magic.

    My point is only that civilizations in fantasy are not beholden to the exact same progression arc that we've seen on earth. If you think that's a "weak" argument, then I simply disagree with you on a fundamental level, because that's common sense to me.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  13. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Posts:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    1,500
    Trophy Points:
    6,192
    Credits:
    2,429
    Ratings:
    +2,390 / 393 / -175

    Oh God. By the way, don't you mean Finn and Rose? And shouldn't Rose share the "guilt" for talking about the mission in front of DJ?
     
    • Cute Cute x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    At the time, our real world tech was surpassed in every way. Time has created a need for fans to "explain" why some things look lower tech. There's a difference between that and having a movie created now saying they don't have the equivalent of a cell phone without an explanation as to why. Most every sci-fi will at least have a throw away line explaining why they can't use or don't have the ability to communicate (or any other of those simple or every day things we take for granted).

    Then there's a difference between tech and war strategies. Only we humans could be so arrogant as to think only we can come up with a strategy as simple as kamikaze attack and that multiple hundred of species over thousands of years have not come up with that same idea. Heck, we see it in nature, it's a very simple idea. If it does not exist in SW, that would have to be explained because it simply is just that basic.

    As much as I can agree that fantasy isn't beholden to the "exact same progression", considering there are hundreds (if not thousands) of intelligent species in the SW universe, and that populations are far greater than our own (hundreds of trillions) and that they've had access to this level of tech for thousands of years, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most of what we've discovered and figured out hasn't already been discovered and figured out in the GFFA. The order may have been different, some species may have issues with certain ways of thinking, some may not have even progressed far enough (ewoks, gamoreans ect...) but to write off the core worlds I think is definitely a weak argument based on all those facts that we do have.

    So yeah, there is room for it to be off limits, but it would require at bare minimum a throw away line. Since there isn't one, it's safe to assume that it was a thing that stopped due to technological or strategic reasoning. They had a defense for the hyperspace attack before, or it was never an issue before because.... add explanation. Without one, it leaves DS sized gap in the story telling.
     
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  15. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    1,805
    Trophy Points:
    6,937
    Credits:
    4,511
    Ratings:
    +3,237 / 97 / -34
    Holdo and Poe's thread is about teaching Poe the difference between responsible leadership and heroics. Poe does dumb stuff at the beginning and gets people killed. there were heroes that risked their lives and ultimately paid the price and Poe was happy writing that off as a victory. this is where Poe is wrong as he is not valuing the cost of lives like he should.

    during the siege of Crait Poe realizes that the skimmers will be easily destroyed and, having learned his lesson, orders everyone to retreat. he is shown as understanding what is important about keeping people alive. Finn disobeys his order and continues his run in a desperate attempt to buy the rest of the Resistance some time. Rose ends up risking her life to stop Finn's suicide run as she too understands the value of human life; Rose demonstrates that she has this knowledge throughout the Canto Bight sequence so she is already set up to deliver to the message to Finn.

    Holdo is an admiral and, at the time of the kamikaze attack, the de facto captain of the ship. it is not a weird or uncommon idea to have the captain go down with the ship. the fact that Holdo, knowing she was going to die, decided to do a kamikaze attack is not strange, nor does it undermine the moral themes at play in the story.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 12, 2018 ---
    the FO crew do get freaked out once they realize what she's planning, so clearly it's been done before and clearly it's a threat to be reckoned with.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    I understand your concerns, but I think we'd need to make quite a lot of assumption to definitively say anything. Perhaps you're right that a "throwaway line" could've shed some light on this scene.

    As it stands, I'm far more concerned with how this affects the future of the series. There's no proof this maneuver was ever performed before TLJ, but obviously it's been performed now. IX should probably address this concern.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  17. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    82
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    187
    Credits:
    357
    Ratings:
    +235 / 16 / -11
    What have I done.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Cool Cool x 1
  18. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    1,805
    Trophy Points:
    6,937
    Credits:
    4,511
    Ratings:
    +3,237 / 97 / -34
    the crew on the FO ship seemed to know what Holdo was up to.

    i think that kamikaze capital ships are a rare thing in general. no one wants to waste an asset like that if they can help it. in the case of the Raddus, that ship was going down suicide run or no, so it's something of an exception. ordinarily i doubt the Resistance, which one would imagine is pretty tight on funds and such, would waste capital ships in suicide run attacks.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  19. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Posts:
    669
    Likes Received:
    1,524
    Trophy Points:
    6,567
    Credits:
    2,545
    Ratings:
    +2,688 / 76 / -50
    You tried to start an actual discussion.

    giphy.gif
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
  20. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    2,357
    Credits:
    881
    Ratings:
    +696 / 22 / -11
    [​IMG]

    To be fair you can't expect every poster to comment in direct response to your original post. Some threads will splinter naturally. Others in ways some consider to be... unnatural.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Cute Cute x 1
Loading...

Share This Page