Holdo and Rose - was there a contradiction?

To be fair, at least the discussion was actually a spinoff of the topic at hand, and not a meta-discussion on the original poster's personal standard of what is or isn't acceptable in a thread...



Anyway, back on track...

In my opinion, one of the other big things that separates these two things: responsibility. Holdo is a high ranking official, and has brought the Resistance to what could be its doom. Finn and Rose are kind of nobodies. They don't hold the same responsibilities toward the Resistance that Holdo did.

 

On topic:

I don't think there is a contradiction. However, I think there are issues with Rose's line after crashing into Finn.

Regarding Holdo's sacrifice, I don't see any issues. When she realized the fleeing Resistance ships were being blown away, she came up with a plan on the spot to try and save them. She sacrificed herself. It worked. No problems there.

Regarding Rose's decision, I do have issues. I think Rian Johnson intended the line to mean one thing, but it ended up meaning something different to a lot of viewers. Rian recently referenced a quote from Kushner, about the Rebels in ESB fighting the war from a position of love, rather than a position of hate. He was using this quote to justify Rose's line, implying that the quotes are essentially the same. However, they aren't really the same. Kushner's line acknowledged that the Rebels would fight and destroy their enemy. Rose's line CAN be interpreted to mean that the Resistance should not destroy their enemies, but rather only save those that they love. It was VERY poorly worded, if Rian's intentions were what he says they were.

I do think that Rose saw Finn's sacrifice as something that would not work. And I get that. If a bug flies down the barrel of a gun, and the gun fires.....the bug is dead and the gun is still intact. Sure. And Poe had already called off the "attack" in favor of trying something else. Plus there were already very few Resistance fighters still alive.

Also to be considered, we know at this point in the film that Finn hates the FO very much, and also feels very lost in terms of the morality of the war. Maybe in a better state of mind, he would have realized flying an already disintegrating tin can into a giant piece of "Death Star tech" might not work.

I blame what I perceive to be the poor wording of Rose's line, for any impressions of moral contradiction within the film. I understand how some might see contradiction.

 

His ship was literally melting.

Every time they disobeyed an order, something bad happened.

- Bombers....gone.
- Entire Resistance transports....gone.
- Kylo becomes Supreme Leader, likely further away from redemption (that topic is always debatable, of course, in other threads)

Rose saves Finn. We can speculate on consequences - perhaps they remained hunkered down for another few seconds, and nobody finds the crystal fox, who escapes and they remained trapped - assuming what Finn did would have worked, which it wasn't going to - his ship was literally melting and he was disobeying Poe's order.


Sidenote: I thought the entire series is about not conforming to prior dogma? Make one's own decisions, save your friends, maintain hope. Does anybody listen to Lucas?

 

Was Obi-Wan morally correct in leaving Anakin to suffer?
Was Luke correct in leaving his training?
Was Qui-Gon correct in pulling Anakin away from his mother?
Were the Jedi correct in their treatment of Anakin?

Moral quandaries populate the Star Wars galaxy, and they often don't have a clear answer or guide other than: Act out of love for your friends.

Whether or not Rose thought that Finn was going to be successful is absolutely relevant to the decision making according to the claimed 'moral dogma' of the film. The entirety of the remaining pilots, including the most knowledgable, experienced one - Poe - stated it wasn't going to work. Rose herself was a mechanic, she's not stupid. She has valid judgment there considering she likely knows the materials and mechanics of how crappy those speeders were.

 

I think unless the screen freezes and Rian Johnson himself walks out in front of it to lecture us on the merits of sacrifice and love, we can assume the movie is at least capable of some complexity.

 

Coming to your galaxy in 2055 - The Last Jedi - The Ring version!

 

Haha, I was thinking more in the style of an afterschool special.

But having RJ pop in Ring style might be far less scary than that

 

Sure.

Who said both were correct?

Who said both were equal circumstances?

That's complexity.

 

the morals at play are valuing life and responsible leadership, right? Holdo sacrificing herself when she was going to go down with the ship anyway does not undercut this.

 

i thought you were saying that Holdo's sacrifice was a contradiction of (thus undercutting) Rose's actions to stop Finn from doing the same thing?

the story is not trying to address whether or not it's ok to kill oneself to protect friends; the story is trying to say that preservation, saving yourself (or others) for another day, and accepting failure and moving on, are ok things to do and part of how we grow.

 

No. Poe spoke trough intercom to Finn about transporters leaving Raddus in secret. That is how DJ learned of it and that is what he bargained for with FO for his release. So. It is all Poe's fault. And Finn's for being stupid enough to talk to Poe about that infront of shady DJ.

 

whichever comes you first, you know what i mean a "contradiction" happened, supposedly.

i never picked up on any special cues in regards to self sacrifice. the theme of failure and moving on is far more pervasive and at all play throughout the entire movie with almost every character; i saw Rose's actions as further hammering that home, whereas i saw Holdo's actions as being natural given the situation (plus, a great excuse to do that awesome silent shot).

 

Watching the film now, and to add to what I said earlier:

Holdo's people were dying in front of her. Finn's were still safe (for the time being) within the fortress.

Holdo was literally about to die anyway. Her death was moments away. So she said "F*** YOU!" *SPLODE*. Finn intentionally put himself in harm's way.

There was a possibility to live to fight another day in Finn's case. Not in Holdo's.

Again, I think Rian messed up big time with Rose's line. But in terms of the two situations, I don't see direct contradiction.

 

She could not have lightsped to safety for long. Ship was out of gas, or right at the end. Just enough to ram the ship. And Resistance commanders have to be the one to pilot the ships, as setup in the medical frigate scene.

Basically, both did technically choose to sacrifice themselves.

Situations were different though. Holdo was out of options. Resistance down on Crait still had some options.

The Rose line does eff it up a bit.