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Holdo and Rose - was there a contradiction?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    To be fair, at least the discussion was actually a spinoff of the topic at hand, and not a meta-discussion on the original poster's personal standard of what is or isn't acceptable in a thread...

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, back on track...

    In my opinion, one of the other big things that separates these two things: responsibility. Holdo is a high ranking official, and has brought the Resistance to what could be its doom. Finn and Rose are kind of nobodies. They don't hold the same responsibilities toward the Resistance that Holdo did.
     
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  2. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    On topic:

    I don't think there is a contradiction. However, I think there are issues with Rose's line after crashing into Finn.

    Regarding Holdo's sacrifice, I don't see any issues. When she realized the fleeing Resistance ships were being blown away, she came up with a plan on the spot to try and save them. She sacrificed herself. It worked. No problems there.

    Regarding Rose's decision, I do have issues. I think Rian Johnson intended the line to mean one thing, but it ended up meaning something different to a lot of viewers. Rian recently referenced a quote from Kushner, about the Rebels in ESB fighting the war from a position of love, rather than a position of hate. He was using this quote to justify Rose's line, implying that the quotes are essentially the same. However, they aren't really the same. Kushner's line acknowledged that the Rebels would fight and destroy their enemy. Rose's line CAN be interpreted to mean that the Resistance should not destroy their enemies, but rather only save those that they love. It was VERY poorly worded, if Rian's intentions were what he says they were.

    I do think that Rose saw Finn's sacrifice as something that would not work. And I get that. If a bug flies down the barrel of a gun, and the gun fires.....the bug is dead and the gun is still intact. Sure. And Poe had already called off the "attack" in favor of trying something else. Plus there were already very few Resistance fighters still alive.

    Also to be considered, we know at this point in the film that Finn hates the FO very much, and also feels very lost in terms of the morality of the war. Maybe in a better state of mind, he would have realized flying an already disintegrating tin can into a giant piece of "Death Star tech" might not work.

    I blame what I perceive to be the poor wording of Rose's line, for any impressions of moral contradiction within the film. I understand how some might see contradiction.
     
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  3. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    His ship was literally melting.

    Every time they disobeyed an order, something bad happened.

    - Bombers....gone.
    - Entire Resistance transports....gone.
    - Kylo becomes Supreme Leader, likely further away from redemption (that topic is always debatable, of course, in other threads)

    Rose saves Finn. We can speculate on consequences - perhaps they remained hunkered down for another few seconds, and nobody finds the crystal fox, who escapes and they remained trapped - assuming what Finn did would have worked, which it wasn't going to - his ship was literally melting and he was disobeying Poe's order.


    Sidenote: I thought the entire series is about not conforming to prior dogma? Make one's own decisions, save your friends, maintain hope. Does anybody listen to Lucas?
     
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  4. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    I think Rose's line in of itself is proof that the film didn't portray Finn's attack as imminent failure.

    She said "not be destroying the things we hate" -- which implies he was about to destroy something he hated...
    I see no legitimate way to argue that Finn's attack was guaranteed failure, or success. Just as Holdo's attack was neither guaranteed failure or success.

    If you want to argue from that point of view then you're getting into technological semantics that don't belong in Star Wars.
    I believe the movie portrayed Finn as about to destroy the Butthole and Rose stopped him for reasons.
    I believe the movie sided with Rose's reasons which, to me, creates a moral contradiction within the movie --only through execution. Two characters can easily have different morals in a film.


    EDIT: I can totally imagine Finn's ship driving straight into the eye and causing the whole mess to explode, knocking down walkers next to it. Even causing a classic TLJ comedy style 'dominoe effect' taking out all the walkers.

    FURTHER EDIT: But, for this discussion I don't think it matters whether or not Finn would have been successful.
    He thought he was going to be successful, he was committing suicide to save his friends. Just as Holdo did.
    Rose stopped him saying that's not how we do things - this was a moral difference to what Holdo did.
    Did the movie side with both of these decisions? The movie must act as an entity and cannot portray two different moralities as both correct, it would create a contradiction.
     
    #64 AfraidFool, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  5. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Was Obi-Wan morally correct in leaving Anakin to suffer?
    Was Luke correct in leaving his training?
    Was Qui-Gon correct in pulling Anakin away from his mother?
    Were the Jedi correct in their treatment of Anakin?

    Moral quandaries populate the Star Wars galaxy, and they often don't have a clear answer or guide other than: Act out of love for your friends.

    Whether or not Rose thought that Finn was going to be successful is absolutely relevant to the decision making according to the claimed 'moral dogma' of the film. The entirety of the remaining pilots, including the most knowledgable, experienced one - Poe - stated it wasn't going to work. Rose herself was a mechanic, she's not stupid. She has valid judgment there considering she likely knows the materials and mechanics of how crappy those speeders were.
     
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  6. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I think unless the screen freezes and Rian Johnson himself walks out in front of it to lecture us on the merits of sacrifice and love, we can assume the movie is at least capable of some complexity.
     
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  7. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Coming to your galaxy in 2055 - The Last Jedi - The Ring version!
     
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  8. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Haha, I was thinking more in the style of an afterschool special.

    But having RJ pop in Ring style might be far less scary than that :p
     
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  9. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    A movie with complexity is fine.
    A movie portraying multiple characters with different morals is fine.
    But I stand by my statement that a film cannot portray two opposing moralities as both correct within one film without creating a contradiction.
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Sure.

    Who said both were correct?

    Who said both were equal circumstances?

    That's complexity.
     
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  11. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    This is the discussion I was intending to have.

    From a real life stand-point we could discuss whether or not they were correct in their decisions.
    But I'm interested in what everyone thinks the Film thought - can we determine which decisions the film thought were right.
     
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  12. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    the morals at play are valuing life and responsible leadership, right? Holdo sacrificing herself when she was going to go down with the ship anyway does not undercut this.
     
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  13. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    The moral decision I see is, it is right to sacrifice yourself for the hope of your friends survival.

    EDIT: I never thought Holdo's decision undercut anything -- I believe it was the right decision and I believe the film portrayed it as the right decision.
     
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  14. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    i thought you were saying that Holdo's sacrifice was a contradiction of (thus undercutting) Rose's actions to stop Finn from doing the same thing?

    the story is not trying to address whether or not it's ok to kill oneself to protect friends; the story is trying to say that preservation, saving yourself (or others) for another day, and accepting failure and moving on, are ok things to do and part of how we grow.
     
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  15. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Well, technically Rose's action came after in the movie so the contradiction could only come about from Rose's actions--

    I understand what you're saying and I think that's a great message -- as I stated before I think the problem lies in execution.
    I think, that due to poor execution, the movie gives a different message.

    EDIT: See Benjamin Lewis' post above for clarification on why there may be a execution error on message.
     
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  16. Chise

    Chise Rebel Official

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    No. Poe spoke trough intercom to Finn about transporters leaving Raddus in secret. That is how DJ learned of it and that is what he bargained for with FO for his release. So. It is all Poe's fault. And Finn's for being stupid enough to talk to Poe about that infront of shady DJ.
     
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  17. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    whichever comes you first, you know what i mean ;) a "contradiction" happened, supposedly.

    i never picked up on any special cues in regards to self sacrifice. the theme of failure and moving on is far more pervasive and at all play throughout the entire movie with almost every character; i saw Rose's actions as further hammering that home, whereas i saw Holdo's actions as being natural given the situation (plus, a great excuse to do that awesome silent shot).
     
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  18. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    Watching the film now, and to add to what I said earlier:

    Holdo's people were dying in front of her. Finn's were still safe (for the time being) within the fortress.

    Holdo was literally about to die anyway. Her death was moments away. So she said "F*** YOU!" *SPLODE*. Finn intentionally put himself in harm's way.

    There was a possibility to live to fight another day in Finn's case. Not in Holdo's.

    Again, I think Rian messed up big time with Rose's line. But in terms of the two situations, I don't see direct contradiction.
     
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  19. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

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    Holdo chose to sacrifice herself
    Finn chose to sacrifice himself

    Holdo could have turned and lightspeeded away safetly leaving the resistance behind.

    They both chose,
    neither were forced

    You said "Finn intentionally put himself into harm's way"
    So did Holdo, as a commander should. She could have put someone else in that position.
     
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  20. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    She could not have lightsped to safety for long. Ship was out of gas, or right at the end. Just enough to ram the ship. And Resistance commanders have to be the one to pilot the ships, as setup in the medical frigate scene.

    Basically, both did technically choose to sacrifice themselves.

    Situations were different though. Holdo was out of options. Resistance down on Crait still had some options.

    The Rose line does eff it up a bit.
     
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