1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Holdo and Rose - was there a contradiction?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by AfraidFool, Mar 8, 2018.

  1. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Posts:
    343
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    2,792
    Credits:
    985
    Ratings:
    +762 / 12 / -3
    I've had many questions regarding Holdo's decisions, which have increased after watching the movie again...This is my view of course.

    1. There were a few vessels left after the FO attack. Technically, Holdo could have divided the resistance into each of the surviving ships, split the surviving officers among the vessels and then all could have jumped to lightspeed to different locations (with the plan to rendez-vous later). The FO would have pursued one of the ships and probably destroyed it, saving the rest (specially since the tracking device was only being done by one FO ship at a given time).

    2. Since the resistance possessed baffler technology (which they used on their escape pods), they could have ferried out resistance members to safety in small batches on ships equipped with the baffler technology. Only the ferrying pilots of the ships and the members leaving in a particular batch would have been in danger at a given time).

    Obviously Holdo was using this tech to evacuate personnel from the ships as they ran out of fuel and bringing them on board the Raddus or the FO would have killed them during evacuation. So making lightspeed jumps to drop people on Crait or some other locations would have saved both lives and fuel. Once most people were evacuated, only a skeleton crew or Holdo needed to remain onboard- the tension that FO might discover batches of personnel leaving, and Holdo finally crashing into the Supremacy to save the last batch would have been more interesting than the long dull space chase we got.

    3. I also watched Poe's interaction with Holdo again..... Poe doesn't ask her for her plan details- he just asks her if there is a plan and what are his orders (both reasonable requests). Nothing stopped her from telling him that she had a plan in place and she would reveal it on a need to know basis to the relevant personnel. Any secret plans Poe makes with Finn and Rose after she said this would have appeared reckless and Poe could have actually learned leadership and strategic thinking from Holdo by the end of the movie.

    If they wanted to create a competent female leader to inspire female viewers, she should be giving lucid instructions, not lines like "hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it..." when asked if she had a plan.:rolleyes:

    As for Rose, I think a few things could have corrected her arc. For instance, I wish they had stuck with the original idea of Finn and Rose going in disguise to the casino (concept art of this exists) instead of that silly fathier freeing (which achieved nothing since the indentured kids were still in the fathier stables at the end of the movie presumably looking after them).

    [​IMG]

    They could have had Rose dress feminine (a subtle Cinderella message), given Finn-Rose more flirty banter and have her being a little jealous of Rey, so the audience buy her falling for Finn by the end of the story and therefore recklessly saving his life.

    When Finn pulls her out of the vessel, she could have simply said Finn's ship lacked the capacity to destroy the cannon (instead of the audience getting the mixed message that she stopped Finn from saving the resistance and thus appearing to contradict Holdo's message)....and then she could have said the "saving the one you love" dialogue and kissed Finn. It would have made a much deeper emotional impact.

    Also, the scene of Finn and Rose flying to and from Canto Bight could have had Rose teaching Finn the basics of flying (simply moving his hand to one of the controls would have been sufficient)... this could have also been used to convince the audience of their chemistry and taken care of the plot hole of how Finn could have flown the ski speeder on Crait (yet needed a pilot to escape in TFA).
     
    #81 panki, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
    • Original Original x 1
  2. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I find it funny when people say with conviction "His ship couldn't have destroyed that." or the opposite. The effects of their actions, and thus the success or failure is completely dependent on the writers. If RJ wanted Finn's ship to destroy it, it would have. If RJ wanted Holdo's sacrifice to be in fain, he could have done that too. They are unlike the DS attacks because in the DS attacks they had backstory that explained plans to ensure success... if they managed to get the job done.

    In TLJ, both those scenarios are not eluded to prior to the action. Both are pretty unique situations, so the end result lays entirely on what the writer wants it to be.

    So when Rose stops Finn, you have to assume it would work since it probably had at least as much chance (based on canon and lore we knew before her attack) as Holdo's ship ripping through a fleet of SD. So Rose did it to save his life because she likes him, in short. It could have killed the resistance, but luckily Rey made a new door were none existed.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  3. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Posts:
    343
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    2,792
    Credits:
    985
    Ratings:
    +762 / 12 / -3
    I never said that "his ship couldn't have destroyed the cannon"..... I said Rose should have had a line like that to make her action to save Finn more convincing.....right now it looks like Finn wanted to sacrifice himself to save the resistance in an act of love and friendship but Rose knocked him to the side, almost killing both of them because she fancied him (making her appear silly).

    It is not what the writer wanted that I am referring to but the inconsistency that could have been neatly ironed out with a simple line.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I wasn't referring to your post and I agree with you. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Posts:
    343
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    2,792
    Credits:
    985
    Ratings:
    +762 / 12 / -3
    :D
     
  6. AfraidFool

    AfraidFool Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    82
    Likes Received:
    120
    Trophy Points:
    187
    Credits:
    357
    Ratings:
    +235 / 16 / -11
    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    This, in my opinion, is why the situations are one in the same. That is, from a moral standpoint.
     
  7. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Posts:
    2,198
    Likes Received:
    3,388
    Trophy Points:
    11,467
    Credits:
    4,385
    Ratings:
    +5,196 / 104 / -18
    I think one of the oddest things about this (and I have mentioned it before) is that characters themselves can't be sure of the outcome of their actions. There is no way that Holdo knows her attack against the Supremacy produces enough shrapnel, flying in the right direction to take out all of the Destroyers. Because if she doesn't take out all of them, if she only damages the Supremacy, the remaining Star Destroyers fire on the fleeing escape ships destroying them, and the end result is the same.

    Finn can't know for sure that his attack will work. He is portrayed several times as having insider knowledge about the FO so you could make the case that he probably had a better of idea of what would happen than a layman. But he doesn't know for certain.

    Rose doesn't know for certain that crashing into Finn won't kill both of them. She had already turned back when Poe ordered it, she would have had to accelerate to circle around and catch up with Finn to crash, how does she know she isn't going to kill both of them? Further, even if the attack is successful, she doesn't know if Luke is coming back, the plan was to hunker down at Crait, not wait for Luke to rescue them. As far as Rose knew, when she wrecked Finn she had saved what she loved for "an additional 5 minutes" - because he was STILL going to die along with all the rest of the Resistance. They didn't have a Plan B, no allies were coming, the door was about to give way, they had no weapons to fight the walkers, it was over. Rose's actions make NO sense given all the rest of what we know.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Old News Old News x 1
  8. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2017
    Posts:
    554
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    Trophy Points:
    5,742
    Credits:
    1,490
    Ratings:
    +1,415 / 3 / -0
    I don’t know this for sure, but I think it’s possible that Rose knew (or thought) there was no way Finn could be successful in destroying the cannon by sacrificing himself—not to mention, for selfish reasons, I’m sure she didn’t want to watch her friend die.

    However, if I remember correctly, either Finn or Rose makes a comment to the effect of, “This is all that’s left?” when they see how quickly the Resistance’s numbers have dwindled. So, I think it’s also possible that, if she thought or knew Finn’s attempt would be unsuccessful, she stopped him because she knew that he could do more for the cause if he was alive than he was dead. They really couldn’t afford to lose any more people.

    In all honesty, though, it probably just wasn’t something they thought a whole lot about. In my opinion, though, I have my doubts that Finn would’ve been able to destroy the cannon by flying into it. Holdo really had no other option. The Resistance would’ve been destroyed entirely had she not rammed the Raddus into the Supremacy. It was more evident that she could be successful in her sacrifice than it was with Finn.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
  9. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    3,785
    Likes Received:
    11,859
    Trophy Points:
    142,767
    Credits:
    12,310
    Ratings:
    +16,452 / 294 / -95
    Poe calls them off and says the gun is charged and it would be a suicide run to go further. They had failed and Poe did the wise thing (this time) by retreating.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2017
    Posts:
    554
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    Trophy Points:
    5,742
    Credits:
    1,490
    Ratings:
    +1,415 / 3 / -0
    That had totally slipped my mind when I wrote that post, but you’re right.

    That in itself pretty much explains why Rose did what she did. Poe told him to stop and he didn’t listen. Even if Poe hadn’t said it was a suicide run, I would’ve had some serious doubts that Finn could’ve destroyed the cannon by flying into it. The Resistance’s numbers were dwindling quickly and I think Finn still has a lot to offer to them, so I think that, beyond her personal relationship with Finn, Rose also realized that he was an important asset to the cause.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Posts:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    1,450
    Trophy Points:
    6,417
    Credits:
    2,566
    Ratings:
    +2,638 / 58 / -20
    By then, Finn, Poe and Rose had already saw the Falcon, before ordered the retreat.

    Holdo, was already going to die and because she was the decoy in the ship with barely any fuel left. Her choices were wait to die, or die being the survivors time.

    For Finn, Poe ordered the retreat. He had no idea of the impact his antique skimmer would do, and Rose had to tell him to put his rudder done to steer. Also it was Rose who was put in charge of assessing the skimmers.

    You could argue Finn knew more about the canon, but Rose knew more about the skimmers.
     
Loading...

Share This Page