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How deeply rooted is the division of TLJ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I was reading another thread that dealt with RJ seeming to say that JJ can go yet another direction with Rey's parentage.

    Which got me thinking... how divided is the fan base really? How much of a nudge would it take to bring a hater of TLJ to change their minds, or a lover of TLJ to hate the ST?

    Rey has been kept mysterious so far in two movies. Her motivations look pure, but I remember thinking in TFA when she defeats Kylo, that she might be taping into the dark side. Anger at having seen Kylo kill his father (and her mentor father figure), of having been mind raped ect... They can go anywhere with Rey if they really wanted to.

    If you hate the ST, what would it take for you to turn to the side of those who love the ST?
    And if you love the ST, what would it take for you to hate the ST?

    Can you fathom a scenario that would change your mind? Do you dare to even entertain the possibility, or does acknowledging that possibility feel too much like betrayal or a lack of faith in your current view of the ST?
     
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  2. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Well the FIRST thing they can do is 4 Rey Somebody.

    Who the Sith wants to buy the "Young Rey & Her Scumbag Parents" novel? Not me.


    Oh & dont let the "hey, as long as it's a good story" sheeple fool u. We have never been mor divided.
     
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  3. KesselRunner

    KesselRunner Rebel General

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    I could see my neutral stance changing if certain backstory elements were fleshed out properly. I would like to know the stories leading up to Ben's fall, and the full extent of what happens to Luke, Leia and Han between ROTJ and TFA. If/when those stories are told, I'll have a better idea of whether I really like or dislike TLJ or TFA as a part of the new Canon. I do hope those stories come eventually. I prefer having more context at my disposal, especially with my background as an Expanded Universe fan. The EU/Legends is still one of the deepest, most fleshed out and detailed sci fi universes out there. I hope to see Canon become just as full of life and chaos as Legends is. ;) That would definitely alter my perception of TLJ.
     
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  4. Hunin

    Hunin Rebel General

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    I guess the beauty of taking a left turn is that all directions become surprising afterwards; even a return to the road via detours.

    So simply wanting a good story is making me a sheep?
     
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  5. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    We'r not getting good stories. Well, original good stories.
     
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  6. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Commander

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    At the moment my opinion of TLJ is that it's not a great film, take away the fact it's Star Wars then it isn't even a good film, there are parts I really dislike which I will never change my mind on. Fans are divided on these parts and on the story itself.

    However the outcome of Episode 9 might just turn TLJ into something better, maybe TLJ had to take the hit to make Episode 9 a masterpiece, wishful thinking but that's what I'm hoping for anyway.
     
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  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I saw TLJ opening weekend and didn't like the movie. I always see every SW movie atleast twice in the theater or multiple times because I'm a diehard, but I just didn't want to go back right now.

    I'm going to re-evaluate it when it comes to BluRay in the spring, because I think right now the fandom is so toxic that most of us are circling the wagons on our opinion. I don't think I will ever love TLJ (I loved TFA) because that is all your gut reaction and you can't change how you feel in that respect. But you can learn to appreciate certain good moments while tolerating the bad moments as that is what I did with the PT. For years and years, I just didn't like the PT because they weren't as great as the OT, and then I changed my approach. I tried to find the things in those movies that made the OT better and gave it more depth (The Rise of the Empire, The Jedi Council, Palpatine's Arc), while tolerating Anakin's and Padme's story arcs. I hope to do the same with TLJ, but right now I think I just need to take a step back, give it a few months, and then revisit in the spring where I can view it at home in a different light.
     
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  8. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    I'm not sure. TLJ was beyond a joke, character motivation just slung out the window. Also having to tolerate bratty behaviour from people pushing characters which are brittle or tacky and trying to force people to like them. Then we have places like this where clicky groups who pathetically posts memes and gifs, just to derive looking for a high five comments. I just don't give a blast, sorry. Block me, because I am not the one making it personal. Now we can't put blame on people but we should all be allowed to debate and to focus on legitimate concerns.

    As for fandom, there are very few impeccable behaved individuals, I know I have been an idiot and made errors. But I don't consider myself as part of a collective group. But I will say tumblr and reddit have caused some nasty toxic immature discourse and to me that is where the 'split' is coming from. The attitude from these places are spiteful and prickly. Until we dissolve and stop promoting individuals and accounts and using them as 'proof' we will never have peace and resolution.

    And yes I know I am disliked by some here, am not going to be shocked if you are going to leave me a snarky post or give me a dislike practice what you preach attitude comments but you know where not all the same.
     
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  9. TheTruTru

    TheTruTru Rebelscum

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    This. I can like the ST a lot more if they can tie up all these loose threads. Who is Snoke? How did the FO takeover? Who are the KoR?, Why is Rey so powerful?, Why did Han leave Leia?, Who is Maz & how did she get the lightsaber? Why does the lightsaber call to Rey?, Why did Ben go dark?, etc
     
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  10. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I love the sequel trilogy. I love ambiguity and intentional lacunae. If I don't want everything spelled out for me. I would be a person who would want everthing in my movie explained to me I would feel ignorant, stupid and arrogant.
     
    #10 Ammianus Marcellinus, Jan 2, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2018
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  11. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think there is a difference between things being spelled out and things being developed better. For example, Vader tells Luke that he is his father in ESB so we are all left with that cliffhanger. Now it is developed nicely in ROTJ in which Luke talks to each person (Yoda, Kenobi, and Leia) and you get their different reactions. Yoda is distant and doesn't want to talk about before he dies, Obiwan is heartbroken and feels the guilt, and Leia is just stunned to the point where she doesn't know how to react. That is how you develop a plot point like that from a Mystery Box Question in the previous movie. We only get a 2 minute backstory about Anakin from Kenobi in ROTJ, so there was much ambiguity left for the PT, but you get a better understanding of everyones feelings after the movie is done.

    TLJ just gives us one sentence about her heritage (which a huge part of TFA's narrative was built on) and that is why it is not developed well. You're right that we don't need everything spelled out, be it has to be developed better.
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    Same here. I am not even curious about Snoke past anymore. The only thing that I would like some explanation, 10 seconds its enough, is how Luke/Anakin saber was in possesion of Maz.
     
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  13. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I'm sorry to say this, but I completely disagree. Saying that the movie just gives us 'one sentence' about her heritage is a complete misreading of how heritage/origins/family/parents are used in this movie. TLJ is in fact built completely on the question of Rey's heritage/origins:

    "In spite of her youth, Rey is also ultimately defined by loss: abandonment by her family on the backwater planet of Jakku, forcing her to shoulder burdens well beyond her years. Rey’s journey through The Force Awakens begins with a connection to a peculiar little droid in need, BB-8, who leads her to Finn, then Han Solo and Leia Organa. Through these companions and her growing relationship with the Force, Rey seeks to heal the hole in her heart through the connectedness that normally comes with family."

    That's what TLJ is about. How Rey struggles between having to kill the past to move on, in relation to her family, or aknowledging that it is a part of her. That scene with Kylo where he forces her to aknowledge her biggest fear about her parents, is more than just a reveal that Rey's parents are nobody junktraders. It is the worst 'truth' Rey could hear at that moment, but whether it is an absolute truth remains to be seen.And by extension TLJ also revolves around the question "what is family". The scene where all our heroes are happily together again is there for a reason. It is not just to show a happy ending. It is to show that Rey is home again. It is a home in chaos where many things have changed, yet it is still home.

    It is psychological conflict, an ontological question, 'who/what are my parents & who/what are my family', which is continuously at the forefront in Rey's story and informs her every decision and action in the movie.

    Star Wars, informed by Campbell's insights on the 'Heroes Journey' is always about the psychological conflicts, those inner conflicts that fuel our protagonists and antagonists' actions and decision-making.

    @FN-3263827 has said some very interesting things about the theme of 'family' and Rey in the past, back in the time when I was still a convinced and hubristic Rey-is-a-Skywalker heritic. Perhaps @FN-3263827 can explain how he/she reads the theme family in TLJ.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 2, 2018 ---
    "A long story"

    Though I don't hope she going to tell the story of how she had to crawl up Cloud City's arse to retrieve it.
     
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  14. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Sensitive

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    I'd love an explanation of those random tubes and trapdoors under Cloud City. OMG.....plot hollleeeeeeeee!!!
     
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  15. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    That would all be well in fine if the narrative matched up to TFA which literally hammers you over the head with now misleading mystery box stuff with Rey.

    Why does the Anakin/Luke's lightsaber call out to Rey?

    Why does Obiwan talk to Rey when she touches it?

    Why does Luke's music play when she force grabs the Lightsaber?

    Why can she use the force so easily throughout the movie without one minute of training?

    THAT was essentially the story in TFA, and was setup to lead to something in TLJ. That's fine if you want to make her Random Rey in TLJ, but you need to develop why those things I mentioned above took place or it just looks like a big 'pull the rug' moment to the fans. They could told that story about Random Rey without all of the misleading mystery box moments in TFA like playing Luke's theme.

    What they did in TFA was equivalent to playing the Jaws music for the whole 2 hours teasing you , teasing you that the shark is near, and then the shark never shows up! Sorry, but that was lazy writing by RJ, and a bad setup of mystery boxes by JJ because obviously there was nothing set in stone about anything after TFA (as RJ stated in interviews.)
     
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  16. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Haha lol........haven't thought about it that way. Luke's lightsabre and hand literally fell into a plothole back in ESB.

    And what about this guy. One giant hole of plot!
    [​IMG]
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 2, 2018 ---
    Why does the Anakin/Luke's lightsaber call out to Rey?
    We don't know for sure. Also completely intentional. But that we do know is that the vision that the lightsabre evokes showed Rey how her past, present and future are intimately entwined with the past, present and future of Luke Skywalker and Ben Solo, as well as the larger cosmic struggle in the force between good and evil. The Last Jedi showed that this is indeed the case.

    Why does Obiwan talk to Rey when she touches it?

    Why does Yoda speak to her? Both teachers of the Skywalkers. They're lessons taught to Luke in the past by his former mentors, and correspond to Rey's lessons from Luke in the future. "Heed my words have you not, pass on what you have learned", as Yoda reminded Luke.

    Why does Luke's music play when she force grabs the Lightsaber?
    Is is also The Force theme and because it is the Skywalker heirloom. And as the future showed, she did try to offer it twice to Luke. She contested it again with Kylo causing it to break. Then Luke uses it again in his last scenes in TLJ. He had accepted Rey's gesture, he had taken up the sabre. That's why they show him wielding Anakin's lightsabre. No wonder The Force/ Skywalker theme plays in the vision.

    Why can she use the force so easily throughout the movie without one minute of training?

    Because she starts to believe in it. The Jedi mind trick is the easiest. The moment when she pulled the sabre from the stone/snow surprised her, just like it did Arthur :). "Something has always been there (like the broom boy), and now it is awakened and I'm afraid. I need someone to show me my place in all this? Luke or Ben, in the end Luke and Ben." Apparently pulling something towards you is not really that difficult. You just need to believe you can do it. There is no difference between having to levitate a small piece of metal and a large pile of rocks. Size does not matter. Only in your mind.
     
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  17. Bossky

    Bossky Clone

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    Can we ALL agree that this would be the *PERFECT* place to resolve/set a Live Action Star Wars Series akin to HBO and Netfix, but now happening soon on a Disney streaming service?

    https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/9/...live-action-television-show-streaming-service
     
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  18. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    I recall my first epic argument over anything on this site was over that issue: what happened to the baby killer on Cloud City, and particularly, was that peice of debris falling supposed to be Luke's hand still grasping the saber.
    Zahn didn't think it was, of course, and Abrams didn't either. Now we know that it was retrieved at some point between Empire and The Cabin. I imagine some stories in the pulp are heading our way now that they don't really need it for RotJJ.
     
  19. Boss Vos

    Boss Vos Rebel General

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    I think the best part is going to be when Episode IX comes out, and nothing is explained. :)

    Just like a TV series.
     
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  20. Disciple of Plagueis

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    The mythical talking lightsaber that is a thing in Star Wars now.

    I am sure there are dozens of Skywalker lightsabers floating around. Anakin said he lost them all the time
     
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