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How deeply rooted is the division of TLJ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    How about a hologram on a mechno-chair, like Sidious.....

    The-Legacy-Collection-Palpatine-Holograph-Mechno-Chair_Big_6.jpg
     
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  2. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    The perfect scene for Lando would have been a hologram. At the end when they are all on the Falcon, cut to Chewie in the cockpit. A hologram from Lando pops up. “Chewie, Maz told me you might be in little trouble. I’m sending your coordinates for a safe haven. See you soon old buddy” Chewie roars. Cut to Leia and Rey, then jump to lightspeed.
     
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  3. Blastaar

    Blastaar Rebel General

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    the problem is for people who don't seek out stuff like that, it'll remain a "wtf plot hole".
     
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  4. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Rebel Official

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    I had thought about that or maybe a Cliegg Lars Hover Chair Special!

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Not all of camp 1 wants explanation to everything. For example, I don't care about Snoke or his past. Rey's parents however has been a pretty big piece of the story arc, and though we've been told they are nobody's in TLJ, it is still possible that Kylo was intentionally misleading the audience (and Rey) with that statement. Which further brings the question of Rey's power, which could be tied to her origins, if not necessarily her parents. In a way you can say the PT made fans want to know those origins now instead of in a future trilogy, because if it isn't meshed out now, the fear is the story will be as convoluted as the PT was and leave a bunch of plot holes.

    Not all of camp 2 doesn't require an explanation. Large parts are patiently waiting for Ep9 and receive most if not all the answers to those loose ends and possible plot holes. They are just taking a different approach to those fans who are dissatisfied with TLJ. That's fine, but the verdict on TLJ will remain in question for those fans until Ep9 comes out which could elevate TLJ or completely destroy it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2018 ---
    Don't make the mistake of painting every fan who dislikes the ST or TLJ with the same brush. I mostly want to know Rey's heritage and training or explanation for her ability (which might still come in ep9). The rest can be explained in spin offs, cartoons, books, or even possibly live action TV series. But Rey and Kylo are the focus of this trilogy, without an explanation to Rey's powers beyond (she's Kylo's opposite or whatever) fan theories or one very vague line from a powerful inept dark force wielder, a large portion of fans won't be satisfied. You can call us all misogynists, but we'd mostly all have the same questions were Rey Ray. In a story with a hero, especially a young hero, we travel through that hero's growth into power.

    The reality is, the PT has taught fans not to trust those in charge of these movies, because they often can tie up all the loose ends. Even some very obvious ones. So the questions are out there and as far as I'm concerned, the onus is on LFL and Disney to deliver, if not within this trilogy, than through back story through another medium.
     
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  6. JohnnyL REACTS

    JohnnyL REACTS Rebelscum

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    They need to give a different running time for a Star Wars film. IX might need to be the longest of the franchise. Who are these people that mention runtime as something to complain about. What? I wait 2 years for these movies. How about a Braveheart runtime. Fine with me. The new seats in theatres are plush and comfy. I'm good.

    Not enough time for character development, back story explanation, special effects scenes, then all the side plots to push new characters/keep them relevant.

    Personally I thought TLJ flew by, in both screenings. I'll give Rian that.
     
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  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Rebel General

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    The knights of ren aren't an origin story. Things like the lightsaber and snoke are plot elements that need to be explained. The lightsaber, for obvious reasons and snoke because hes the "big bad". Han and Leia have a scene that seems to be for the sole purpose of delivering exposition about snoke. Rey is the main character so its not unreasonable to want her to have an actual background. We got an empty mystery box instead. I've seen more than one person state that the backstory to the ST feels more interesting than the ST at this point.

    Snoke and the KOR are perfect elements that should be used to expand the plot and move it forward. Instead they were torched or ignored.

    As for the divide, I think we can largely thank disney for that. Its always stupid to demonize half your own fandom if they don't care for the job you did. I think there are serious issues with the writing in this film, but beyond that, I do not see anything wrong with people wanting to see certain things. Its been 30 years since folks have seen luke skywalker. Why is it a crime for them to have wanted to see their hero be a hero? Then when they voice their displeasure, they're told "let the past die", as if that isn't the stupidest f**king motto ever uttered.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2018 ---
    The runtime wasn't the problem. It was the fact that we get a 3 hour film where the plot doesn't really advance. Character arcs are repeated or remain in stasis. Example, rey started the film as a powerful girl who thinks kylo ren is evil. She ends the film as a powerful girl who thinks kylo ren is evil. Finn literally went on the same arc he completed in TFA, but with rose as a fill in for rey. Poe was changed into maverick so he could learn to be more level headed. Basically the character he already was in TFA. Kylo ren starts the story at point A and ends at point A. He's still Mopey MCsadface, still alone, and still conflicted. We still know Blast all about whats going on in the galaxy. We have one surviving new character who was seemingly created to get finn away from rey or to set up a goddamned love triangle.

    Oh and luke is off the board again. Just a legend. Same as he was in TFA.
     
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  8. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel General

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    So what would you suggest as the way forward? People are only allowed to discuss the film in a positive way?

    I personally would not say I hate on anyone’s opnion, but I’m a Star Wars fan who didn’t like a Star Wars movie and wants to discuss that. just like the fans who do love the film and want to discuss that.

    Their is literally nothing wrong with healthy debate, the problem comes when people can’t deal with fact other people may not have the same opnion as them and get abusive. That needs to stop. From both sides.

    Like you said your guilty of it yourself you wrote stop to some one who obviously doesn’t like film but was trying to make his points in a polite manner, and not to one of the many abusive posts made by those who do like the films towards those who do.

    healthy debate about a film is a great thing, but people should just respect that becuase they liked or disliked something doesn't mean that opinion is right.

    But hey this is Star Wars the debate about the prequals has been going on for decades, and the debate about Ewoks has been going even longer, so fans disagree is not a new thing, it just the first time its happened where social media is so wildly spread.
     
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  9. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    The division will decrease over time. Because the more people watch the film the more it's flaws become apparent. And this one has tons of flaws, the most I've seen in a film since the PT. So more people will eventually realize or finally admit that this is a bad film. Objectively bad.

    And yes flaws can be objective flaws. Good narrative has certain principles, structures, and techniques that should be followed. Writers have to learn these things before they can write -- if art were purely subjective, this wouldn't be true. It's why we can say one kind of poem is a sonnet and another kind a free verse poem, or that's a horror film vs a mystery.

    TLJ objectively fails in numerous regards to preexisting narrative standards: plot holes, poor characterization, inconsistent tone, and poor execution.
     
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  10. Copy_Gold_Leader

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    I frequently complain about the bloated run time of modern movies in general, not just TLJ.

    For me it isn't about the actual length of the movie, but whether it needs to be that long and how it is paced. One of my favorite movies I saw in the theater was Zodiac and it clocks in at 2hrs 37 minutes, but I never felt bored, never felt like a scene was unnecessary, or just included because the creators felt they needed more action despite not advancing the plot at all.

    I would happily watch a 3hr plus star wars movie, if the producers had the skill and the courage to challenge the director on what to cut and what to include, so the film flows and has good pacing.
     
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  11. CnlSandersdeKFC

    CnlSandersdeKFC Rebel General

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    From what I've seen, basically anything the other camp wants, would make me hate the trilogy. Going back on any of the themes, and plot lines established in TLJ would make me hate the sequel trilogy. Mostly though? Making Rey somebody.
     
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  12. Kreetle Kris

    Kreetle Kris Rebel General

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    I'm not sure if the divide is that huge or deep as every other OT fan I grew up with ((we're a bunch of friends who now take our kids to this ST) loves TLJ.
    Sure, I can understand some fans not liking the new story , SW means different things to different people, but what I can't get my head around is the fans who would want a continuation of the 'OT greatest hits' album as covered by JJ.

    If ever there was a divide in SW fandom it was the one Lucas created by making the PT. TFA was a deliberate throwback to the OT to bring the old fans back, and bring them back that film did, and then some! It didn't take any chances and felt like a warm blanket to a certain age group who grew up with the OT and more often than not werent the biggest fans of "midichlorians, trade federations and discussing stuff in a committee."

    But seriously, consider this new trilogy not straying from that path and continue as carbon copies from the OT films. It would kill the franchise in a 'law of diminishing returns' way. I'm glad they took the story in a new direction while staying true to it feeling like SW, a thirties serial style scifi pulp fiction in the vein of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.

    The worst thing that could happen now is Disney trying to appease the fans who do not want change and basically teling them Luke is still alive, Rey is his and Mara Jade's daughter, Snoke is Plagueis who has cheated death once again and returns in ep9 as the new emperor and so on. That would be horrible!
     
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  13. Aglarion

    Aglarion Rebel Official

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    But that's exactly what they are, carbon copies from the OT, except they didn't copy the good parts.
     
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  14. Kreetle Kris

    Kreetle Kris Rebel General

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    Maybe TFA was but TLJ? I was under the impression many people disliked the new SW film for being too different from what came before. There's too much comedy, that's not the Luke I grew up with, Jedi don't act that way, Snoke is not as powerful as the emperor, and so on and so forth.
     
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  15. Aglarion

    Aglarion Rebel Official

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    There are many kinds of "different", for many of use this movie changed things that were not supposed to change while making the parts that needed to change too similar to the OT.
    The overall sequence of events it's completely ripped of from ESB, ROTJ:
    - good guys on the run from the bad guys
    - jedi candidate studying with jedi master
    - good guys go to seek help from someone who betrays them
    - good guys defend base against attacking walkers
    - jedi candidate comes to the rescue at the end
    - main villain dies from extreme overconfidence, betrayed by his skywalker apprentice...
     
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  16. Kreetle Kris

    Kreetle Kris Rebel General

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    To be fair half your list is just fantasy tropes and are a staple of these kinds of storytelling: good guys tend to run from bad guys, the opposite would make for a silly, silly adventure film, pupils do tend to study with their masters (Campbell anyone?) and are often betrayed by evil characters that were presented to us as trustworthy. Powerful deus ex machina type saviours are a dime a dozen in pulp fiction as are overconfident bad guys.
    That's what Star Wars is to me; really enjoyable pulp fiction.

    When you wrote they 'didn't copy the good parts' from the OT (I guess that is the above list) that leaves me curious; just what would you change from TLJ to make it work for you and what are the parts of the OT that you thought were good but weren't brought over to the new episode?
     
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Yeah, like @Kreetle Kris said, a lot of these are so broad that I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to make.

    I mean, sure. Typically, the heroes of a story are underdogs.

    Also, we've never actually seen a Rebel fleet in chase like this before. Sure, we've seen the Falcon evade capture, but seeing the fleet as a whole on the move is actually pretty new to Star Wars.
    Aside from the obvious answer of "that's a common trope everywhere", I think it's important to note that I think it's a common misconception that Rey went to Ach-To to train. I think that's just what fans expected.

    No, it's clear she went there to bring Luke to the Resistance. When he refused, she stuck around. Eventually, he did look into training her, but it wasn't her goal, and it was cut pretty short.

    I mean, I feel like this is pretty vague, but sure. Obviously, there are comparisons to be made between Lando and DJ. And I'd say DJ is still a part of the film that I think isn't all that well fleshed out.

    But if we boil it down to this base element, I think we do a disservice to ourselves by oversimplifying things.

    So, you know, an established way that the GFFA conducts war... I feel like it's be weird if the bad guys decided to completely reinvent war every time they had a battle. I mean, would you go up to a modern general and criticize them because they won a battle using a similar strategy and assets that they used for a previous battle?

    Or even in film- you could say, "The orcs are just surrounding Minas Tirith like they did to Helm's Deep in the last film". See, if you boil it down enough, you can even make comparisons that are even more ridiculous. "The Orcs are using swords again? Every fight in these movies is exactly the same!"

    You mean the hero of the story? Yeah, how dare she do something meaningful!

    Yep- that's why everyone totally predicted Snoke's death, right? :p
     
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  18. Snoke33

    Snoke33 Clone Commander

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    I'm a little confused why TFA got so much heat for copying stuff from ANH when this movies copies most of its plot from Empire Strikes back and return of the jedi.

    - Apprentice goes to find master for training
    - Apprentice leaves before finishing training
    - Jedi gives herself up to dark side try and turn someone to the light
    - Dark side apprentice betrays master
    - Last ditch effort to protect base against Walkers in snow (in this case salt that looks like snow)
    - Narrow escape from fallen base in millennium falcon
     
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  19. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Sensitive

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    Because it was a silly complaint to begin with. Its Hidden Fortress in space laced with tons of classical mythological metaphors and references to other genres. Star Wars has been more reference than necessarily 'original'.
     
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  20. Bandini

    Bandini Force Sensitive

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    I'm not divided, I respect the fact people loved the movie while I don't understand it at all.

    Personnaly, I took for a fact that the story I was a fan about and the reason for me to be here has come to an end and not a pleasant end and the characterization of the new serie isn't strong enough to keep me into it.

    Star Wars has ended with this episode for me. It was a good ride though.
     
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