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How deeply rooted is the division of TLJ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel General

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    I agree with you on lots of points you make, if Disney had made this trilogy and it was complete rehash of the original trilogy that would have been terrible. don't get me wrong i completely understand why they made the Force Awakens to be as you describe it "OT greatest Hits" they needed to get the public back on board after the backlash against the prequels. but after that film was made they needed to take a chance and do something different with episode 8. While the Last Jedi defiantly borrow a few plot points from The Empire Strikes Back their is no denying the film takes chances and try's something different and i love the fact Disney and Rian Johnson had the guts to do that, and i give them all the credit in the world fo doing that.

    I also agree with on on your point the worse thing Disney could do is back track on what they did with The Last Jedi. While i think their are lessons to be learned from this film, bringing Luke or Snoke back or making Rey the daughter of Kenobi at this stage would just feel cheap.
     
  2. DarthHutt

    DarthHutt Clone Commander

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    "A website's user ratings destroyed!"
    "A Star Wars movie openly attacked!!"
     
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  3. ralfy

    ralfy Rebel Trooper

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    Sounds like a reasonable point. Why stick with Hidden Fortress?
     
  4. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    The divide will probly fade away over time to some degree as peopel start to reconsider their oppinions once the dust has settled. This goes for both, the lovers and the haters. I assume that both of them will see that TLJ has some really great but also some really terrible moments, disqualifiying it from both, being a masterpiece and being the "worst movie evur". However, the divise nature of TLJ will always be there to some extend. After all Rian designed TLJ to be divise, for the better or worse. What JJ should do is listen to the things haters and lovers of TLJ have in common as far as criticism is concerned. I'm under the impression that many people were not particularly fond of the humour and how it underminded some otherwise powerful moments. Many people did not have an issue with the death of Snoke but about the lack of background information. Many people also pointed out that TLJ felt disjointed and not as connected to TFA as it should have. I think IX could profit from trying to connect the first two movies retroactively. Let Kylo tell us how he met Snoke and where the Knights of Ren went. Tell us what was written in the ancient Jedi texts and what the prime jedi is all about. Bring Luke back as a forceghost and let him do some explaining like Obi Wan's "point of view" speech to close plotholes or finetune some plotelements that felt rushed or underwritten. Maybe bring back the character of DJ working as a double agent who was looking for a way to make it onto the Supremacy to steal some ifnormation there so that the Canto Bight plotline becomes more important to the overall story. Also try to connect the PT the OT and the ST with a final, shocking revelationI. The PT might be an ugly stepchild to some but it's still an important aspect of SW.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2018 ---
    Not necessarily if done correctly. Brinign Luke back as a forceghost would be completely fine with me and will most likely happen in IX. Snoek could be brought back too, maybe as a forcghost who deliberately forced his own death to be free from his crippled and decaying body. Maybe he lives on in a holocron, maybe the black obsidian ring is an ancient dark artifact consuming their hosts thus creating "a Snoke". Maybe Snoke's days were numbered due to a disease but he has been planning ahead like the Eperor did when designing his Sentinels to orchestrate operation Cinder.
     
    #84 BobRoss, Jan 4, 2018
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  5. FotisKaragian

    FotisKaragian Rebelscum

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    But wouldn't that be too much Sauron or Voldemort? To me it would be better if the persona we saw in these two movies was just a pawn or a decoy or a doppelganger or something like that...
     
  6. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    That's what I mean with my example of the obsidian ring creating "a Snoke". If I had to come up with a story it would be something like this. It's a powerful artifact which was created as a prototype holocron by powerful dark forcuser X long before the Jedi and Sith came into existence. Whoever created the ring transferred his/her soul into it similar to how jedi and sith can store their memories into holocrons. It was created by corrupting a Kyper crystal turning it black in the process which served as the darkside equivalent of eternal life since darksiders can't become forceghosts. The ring would corrupt the body of whoever is wearing it but also grants them immense darkside powers. Once the host dies their power is transferred into the ring, making each user more powerful than the last.
    vader castle.png
    The ring is connected to Darth Vader's castle on Mustafar. This could be the place where X lived during the creation of the ring and maybe there are similar rings there or a darkside source that's powering the ring. This could be the reason why Vader lived there as seen in R1. Palpatine placed him there to guard whatever artifacts are hidden in the depths of the castle to make sure no other darkside forceuser would emerge by using the artifacts which could have threatened the Emperor's power. Last but not least the ring is etched with Dwartii glyphes. The Dwartii were only mentioned once in the EU. They were mentioned in the book "Darth Plagueis". Plagueis was one of many who got his power by wearing the ring. He didn't cheat death, his spirit was merely transferred into the ring when he died.
    maxresdefault.jpg
    Like the vision of Bane from beyond the grave the ring could manipulate and control forceusers so that it's creator X could continue to interact with the real world thus immortalizing himself/herself. This manipulative visions would be similar to Rey's forceback which were created by the Kybercrystal inside Anakin's saber. Kylo would have potentially been the new host if he hadn't killed Snoke before he could pass on the ring to his student to continue the rings cycle. This plotline would explain how Snoke came out of nowhere since he simply found the ring on an expedition to Mustafar and was slowly consumed by it but also inhereted its power. It would tie in the prequels due to mentioning Darth Plagueis and set up a trilogy focused on the creating of the ring. IX would be focused on the destruction of theKyber crystal in the obsidian ring which would return the power of the darksiders power stored inside of it back to the living force which would restore the balance.

    /edit: The ring could also have beend created by Darth Bane as a failsave for the rule of two. If both master and apprentice died it would become active corrupting whoever was wearing at that time. When Palpatine and Vader died, the ring became active and started to corrupt Snoke teaching him the knowledge of the Sith in form of visions. It pushed him to lsearch for an apprentice (Kylo) who then killed his own master, an important rite of passage for any sith. With the death of Snoke the SIth are reborn in Kylo. If Rey joins him the rule of the two is reinstated.


    I don't think this is what happens in IX but you see there could be ways to bring back Snoke and tie lose ends together. The guys at Lucasfilm could also make it seem as if everything had been carefully planned out long ago when in reality they probably never had an idea who or what Snoke really is.
     
    #86 BobRoss, Jan 4, 2018
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  7. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I loved the movie, everyone knows that by now, and I don't think time will change that. It might actually increase my love for it. That's my experience so far, at least. My experience with TFA was different, while I liked the movie very much, the time came when I said to myself: "Well, this is all you will get out of this movie." Don't get me wrong, it gave me plenty, not the least of which are amazing new characters. But, when it comes to TLJ, I don't think I even scratched the surface. I am planning my fourth viewing in the next week or so.

    That being said, nothing will ever make me hate Star Wars. I didn't like the prequels though I mellowed over the years - I recognize the great ideas behind the story, but execution still gives me headache. But, prequels didn't erase the originals, didn't stop me from loving Star Wars and so nothing that will come in the future and that I could potentially dislike that will do it either.

    Now, I would really, really dislike if the last movie paired Rey with Kylo Ben just so she could produce new Skywalkers effectively erasing everything TFA and TLJ accomplished. I still wouldn't hate Star Wars.
     
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  8. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    This is very cool; Star Wars was somewhat inspired by LOTR? I think? Maybe the writing team at Lucasfilm is coming up with similar ideas. I would love the story to go in this direction. BUT it probably won't and the fans with incredibly creative minds like yourself, will be disappointed again. Expectations are a path to the Dark side. I really do love your take on it though.
     
  9. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I don't expect this to happen either but as an amateur writer who publishes short novels every now and then as a hobby and to make a bit of money on the side I always try to make connections and think about "what if" scenarios. You could connect the ring even further to the SW mythos.

    The ring could have beend created by Darth Bane as a failsave for the rule of two. If both master and apprentice died it would become active corrupting whoever was wearing it at that time. When Palpatine and Vader died, the ring became active and started to corrupt Snoke and teach the knowledge of the Sith in form of force visions. It pushed him to search for an apprentice (Kylo) who then killed his own master, an important rite of passage for any sith. With the death of Snoke the Sith are reborn in Kylo. If Rey joins him the rule of two is reinstated.
     
    #89 BobRoss, Jan 4, 2018
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  10. FotisKaragian

    FotisKaragian Rebelscum

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    So Snoke is basicaly Smeagol? :D
     
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  11. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel General

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    I suppose your right, anything can be done if told correctly, but for me it would be very hard to do this without it just feeling like Abrams was trying to undo what Johnson did.

    Telling a story correctly is easer said that done, I mean look at the sequel Trilogy, if I take a step back and look at the over all story been told so far its actually pretty awesome(though even with a step back, it irks me how similar the Resistance and New Order are to the Rebellion & Empire) but the plot line of the son of Han and Leia turning to the darkside killing his father and basically becoming the Emperor is fantastic. This story line should of been easy to hit out of the park, i should be jumping with excitement for episode 9, but becuase the story(in my opinion many disagree) wasn't told very well i'm feeling a bit disappointed with this trilogy so far.

    So for me if i was Abrams or Disney i would avoid the storylines you've mentioned, while your 100% right if done correctly they could work, it would be incredibly difficult to do correctly and not feel bodged and thrown together becuase if they really wanted to tell any of the story's you mentioned well they would probably have to have started setting it up in episode 7. And we all know that when the Force awakens was originally wrote Disney didn't have a plan for episode 8 never mind 9.
     
  12. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Don't trust Rotten Tomatoes, IMDb, metacritic, allocine and all the other metacritic websites out there collecting the data of thousands of users all arround the globe! They have been hacked and inflitrated by trolls. The only scientifically accurate poll is cinemascore where TLJ got an "A" rating. Here, let me show you the screenshot.
    cinemascore (1).png
    See? I told you! Hmm quite a lot of "A" movies there. Even "A+". Must have been a fantastic Winter full of great movies! Even Tyler Perry's Boo 2! got an "A-" rating which is almost as good as TLJ's rating!

    Wait I just checked the ratings for this movie on IMDb and it says 3.1 for Boo 2 even though it was rated "A-" by audiences. Could cinemascore be biased? Could it only poll a selected group of diehard fans on opening nights who are predispositioned to like a movie more than the average viewer? Did audiences not have enough time to make up their mind within the 2 minute timespan after the credits had rolled? Could social pressure combined with face to face interviews skew the audience score into overly positive reactions for pretty much any movie?...

    Sorry, I got off track there for a second. Where was I? Oh yes, there's only one reasonable explaination for all of this. These damn trolls who downvoted TLJ also downvoted Tyler Perry's Boo 2! It's a conspiracy I'm telling you!
     
    #92 BobRoss, Jan 5, 2018
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  13. ReyFett

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    The Last Jedi is to Star Wars what Alien 3 is to the Alien franchise and the Crystal Skull is to Indiana Jones.

    So much potential for the story after Episode 7 and they totally blew it.

    I can't believe Disney and Kathleen Kennedy signed off on the script for The Last Jedi. Just reading it they should have known the movie would suck.
     
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  14. Obimahoney

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    A good episode IX will be essential in healing these wounds. The public is split 50/50. SW fans mostly hated this movie.

    KK needs to be very very careful. The core SW fans are the ones driving the sales of toys, multi cinema viewings and are responsible for creating the hype and fanfare that makes SW so interesting for everyone else.
     
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  15. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    From these boards, who I'd have to include as all pretty hard core SW fans, the split appears closer to 70-30... the 70 for those who like it. I'm part of the 30.

    That being said, I think there are lots on both sides of the divide who are waiting for Ep9 to pass final judgment.
     
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  16. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel General

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    This is just one of the issues I have with TLJ.

    TFA was criticized by some for being a remake of ANH and I do think it is essentially a remake but I didn't see that as a negative. What JJ Abrams did with TFA was take a winning formula, put his own print on it and give us that Star Wars feeling from the OT and although not as good OT, I still really liked TFA.

    Rian Johnson seems to have won over the critics with TLJ, for being brave, innovative and making something completely original. But I just don't see it that way, to me it looks like he has taken parts of ESB, pulled parts from ROTJ and just re-sequenced them badly.

    But like I said in my previous post, what happens in Episode 9 might make this a much better film than it is at the moment.
     
    #96 Viper78, Jan 6, 2018
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  17. Demsa Aztor

    Demsa Aztor Rebel Commander

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    I think there's definitely division in relation to TLJ. Of course, you go from forum to forum and the division is there, but will have it's variations. Talking to various friends who are both more hardcore, but mostly casual fans who grew up with SW ranged from : Excellent, to "it was Ok" , to disappointing. So, no matter how you slice it, there's definitely varying opinions about this film. I'm in the , it was ok, but disappointing in terms of character arcs and continuity. I don't apologize for saying it. The film COULD have been better. I think they LFL need to come up with something different, but also "make up" to a large number of the audience who like to see some elements of nostalgia. I think LFL will feel this financially not in the immediate future, but more likely down the road.
     
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  18. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebelscum

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    Cinemascore is deeply flawed because it mainly measures instant fan reaction, where immediate spectacle overwhelms critical thought and reflection.

    TLJ is a film where its problems often don't reveal themselves until its thin plot has been analyzed a bit.
     
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  19. ReyFett

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    I totally agree. JJ got hated on and accused of copying ANH but Rian Johnson did the same for TLJ.

    IMO The Force Awakens at least felt like Star Wars. There were parts in TLJ that didn't even feel like Star Wars. Like the whole casino scene. BTW what was the point of that whole storyline? It seemed a waste of time. Was it just to show Finn and Rose escaping on those horse creatures? That imo didn't feel like something from Star Wars either. More like Harry Potter.
     
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  20. TheBBP

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    That is a fair statement. The difference being that TLJ has the critical acclaim and box office to back it up. Justice League got a B+ likely due to the phenomenon that you just spoke of, but it was generally poorly received and was a flop at the box office. When you add in the factors of the critical reception and the box office, it is easier to take the cinemascore for TLJ more seriously.

    You want us to ignore all of these factors that indicate the film that was well-received and believe that loud voices on the internet are the only real truth. It doesn't work that way.
     
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