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How deeply rooted is the division of TLJ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think if the ST really focused on this storyline, than I think I would be on board much more then I am now. Ironically, I think the OT characters have gotten in the way of this story as it's just sitting right out there waiting to take center stage. The reason why I say this is the Trailer & Name of the movie aren't focusing on the 'balance of the force' and more about Palpatine and the Skywalker name for fans that were disillusioned with the death of Snoke and the character arc of Luke.

    The more and more I think about it, I think a great arc to this Trilogy could have been balance, but really delve into it as that would have rounded out the Saga, and not stepped on the 1-6 storyline. But again, I keep going back to Disney wanting to play the nostalgia card, and I fear that will overshadow this angle of the story in TROS. It's almost like they don't trust the fans and givde them an original storyline as they feel that we ONLY want callbacks, we only want nostalgia, we only want what we loved before in a GFFA. Don't get me wrong, the balance of the force between Rey and Kylo will be there in TROS, but I just don't think it will be explored to the degree that fans like me (and maybe yourself) will want.
     
  2. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Well...lol...why would anyone trust Star Wars fans?

    Jesus. I would NEVER touch Star Wars. EVER.
    The Star Wars fans have driven the creator to stop using the internet and eventually even quit, an actor to quit acting, another to almost commit suicide, another to shut down online accounts, and just a massive amount of spewed hate in documentaries and youtube videos.

    Yeah...I wouldn't trust the fans either.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Every fanbase is like that. Go check out the reaction the latest Game of Thrones episode (and what they are saying about the guys who are adapting the books to the small screen) and you will know what I'm talking about. Or better yet, check out the reaction to the Matrix sequels in 2003, or better yet check out what the fans did to Sophia Coppola after Godfather 3. It's aint just SW fans.
     
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  4. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Yes, fanbases are never great.

    That said, I know of no other fanbase who has caused the level of hell that Lucas has experienced.

    What other group has caused the original creator to not only quit, but quit by saying,

    "Why would I make any more, when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?"

    I know of no other such instance where the creator explicitly stopped because of the fans.

    But that wasn't my point.
    My point was that anyone who trusts fans is foolish. They are a volitile collective that is capable of attacking everything, anything - even themselves.

    Regardless, I don't see much of how this relates back to what I was originally talking about, which was how refocusing on Luke wouldn't make much sense given the contexts.

    I think Abrams, Johnson, Kasdan, et. al. have done a great job so far, and we'll see how it goes for 9. Considering I've been delighted by everything so far, I'm feeling pretty good. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    What’s ironic about your post is (I’m generalizing) the fans that seem to like the ST disliked the PT and were the ones who ran Lucas away. The fans of the PT seem to dislike the ST as they feel that SW is not SW without Lucas and the 1-6 story was complete. So beware of the fans you are going after, cause many of them are the ones defending the ST and specifically TLJ. ;)
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I'm not going after any fans.
    I didn't go after Lucas.
    I road a 15 hour ferry, and hitchiked a few hundred miles to see TPM on opening night and had a blast.

    I do think there are sloppy things going on here and there, and it was no secret that the dialogue was going to be wooden as a scarecrow pole since Lucas wrote it all himself and he's the first to say that out of anyone, but I didn't hate them.

    I think the same about both generations of fans by the way, and I fully believe had Lucas gone with what he had in mind, he would have been right - everyone would have hated him and told him what a terrible person he was.

    He was going towards a story like 8, but 8 as 7, and the main arc being that the Force users were vehicles for the Whills who used them like puppets for their bidding of universal design; this has something to do with Luke cutting himself off from the Force.
    This would essentially remove free will from Luke's past, as well as Anakin's, and I'm pretty certain a huge amount would be pissed at the implications of that.

    All I was saying was that Star Wars fans have always been capable of really bad behavior and conduct, and have done so. Even in the 1980's you saw it. Read Hamill talk of it. I saw it. So did others. The reception for RotJ was pretty cold from some of the fanbase.

    Once you hooked the internet up to that...it lit like gasoline to a match and ran off at speed to a pile of explosives, and it's been that hot ever since.

    I will not be shocked if one day I wake up and read that an angry Star Wars fan killed someone related to the films because of whatever to do with Star Wars that they are mad about.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    maybe don't even invoke it. we're far enough out now that i can admit i had serious anxiety about going to Celebration knowing some idiot could do serious harm at an event packed with so many people.

    that a film about compassion, goodness and forgiveness continues to evoke so much hatred and incivility is beyond my understanding.
    i'll admit i didn't love what George Lucas did with the PT, but i do feel bad that the heart of what he created has become so misunderstood (even corrupted).
    if it has to exist at all, let's hope the vitriol remains in the realm of the ether.
     
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  8. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Whoa, you guys are going down a road that is sort of a hyperbole. Yes, there are idiot fans out there but I really don't think anyone is going to get killed over the films. The internet brings out the crazies in all of our society (not just SW, go check out political websites), but it's ridiculous to discuss something like this (or even having anxiety) at going to SW celebration. From what I see from SW celebration, it is the one time that SW fans sort of put their personal feelings aside of the movies and just enjoy the event. Heck, they gave a standing ovation to Kelly Marie Tran, Hayden, and Ahmad Best in the few years.
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I don't have anxiety. I'm just a jaded sort of person, so when I say that I won't be surprised, it's because everything else is already there.

    And I agree about the internet. That's what I meant by this stuff always being there, that it was like gasoline and the internet was like a match laid to it.

    I'll be rather pleased to never read of a fan attempting, or accomplishing, violence towards the filmmakers. I have a love of humanity, but little faith in people.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  10. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel Official

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    I feel quite frustrated about this whole mess for several reasons.

    Firstly the toxic members of this particular fanbase that have harassed and abused the cast and crew involved, they are in an extreme minority but make us all look bad. There seems to be a weird political mix to this as well, whenever I watch a ST critique video on youtube my suggestions are then full videos like alt right, UKIP, Ben Shapiro, Trump supporters etc you know, all the arseholes in life. I think you just have to accept that you get people like that in life, they are often loud, have an inflated sense of self importance, arrogance, a microscopic world view and a real us v them, intolerant mentality and unfortunately some of them happen to be Star Wars fans. It frustrates me that they exist but I think they get way too much notoriety and in many people's eyes they think these people speak for much on the fanbase just because they make the most noise.

    Secondly I don't like how Disney/Lucasfilm have laid all of the blame for the division and decline in enthusiasm about the films at the feet of the fanbase and refuse to look at themselves in this situation. They also overstate the influence of the afformentioned arseholes and seem to have this mentality that everything they've released in the last 5 years has been wonderful, groundbreaking and it's all a toxic fanbases fault that much of the reaction has been less than enthusiastic. We're apparently just impossible to please and won't acknowledge that they themselves have made a number of mistakes from poor hiring choices, rushing out the first film to quickly make back money, releasing a standalone film pretty much nobody wanted to see, an overuse of banal CGI action sequences, rehashing way too many OT plot elements and in general just releasing some really underwhelming, uninspired, very mainstream, safe, mediocre films.

    Finally the most frustrating thing for me is that it really didn't have to be this way. With some better planning, more patience and a creative leader that really gets Star Wars (like what Marvel have with Feige) we could have seen something spectacular play out, the GFFA has all the ingredients to make that happen, you have Jedi, Sith, the force, John Williams' music, hugely popular and likeable established characters, space and all its possibilities, unlimited technology etc all you need is a compelling story, good dialogue and characters and you basically can't lose with all that other cool stuff to build around them, with the money and resources Disney have they have literally no excuse here. Saying that even if they had have knocked this out of the park there would have still been some criticism from toxic people about race and gender etc but they would have been drowned out into complete insignificance where they belong if the films were of a high enough quality to be universally liked.


    I often wonder what would have happened had Arndt been given time to develop his script, it would have been an agonising wait I'm sure but the payoff would have been worth it. We could've got a much more coherent start to the story, with more developed characters who might have actually got to speak some semi interesting dialogue and a plot structure that ran throughout the trilogy instead of Rey/Kylo's story part 1 and 2 + the sudden return of Sidious.

    I do appreciate btw that many of you on here and in the outside world in general love these films, I like many aspects of them despite their flaws so I get that. But there is a lot of discontent out there as well and it would be very naive to dismiss it.
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Everyone attached to the film has made repeated public communication that the really bad behavior is a minority. Kennedy and Johnson, both, have discussed it numerous times with Johnson stating repeatedly that over 90% of the fanbase interaction that he has is overwhelmingly positive. That said, the troop, including several actors (Hamill included) have chosen to engage with the zeitgeist of that minority base because they feel strongly about the content of that minority's voice.

    Much of the reaction has been quite enthusiastic. A portion of the fanbase didn't like one or more of the past 4 films. The current frustration topic of interest is TLJ, which makes sense. Some minor talk revolves around Solo, but usually Solo gets saddled into conversations about TLJ.

    They have discussed these issues, and talked about them in the same manner pretty much any studio does - by politely, in the public forum, citing creative differences.

    Iger has actually directly apologized for pushing too quickly on Solo.

    No idea which stand alone film you are referring to. Everyone I know who has seen Rogue One was pretty happy; some were mediocre about it. I mean, no one was really asking for that film, per say, but folks were decently pleased by it.
    Everyone seems to be pretty happy with Solo. The biggest problem this film has had, and Iger openly admits this, is that it wasn't given a real chance to market itself to the general public, and rushed out the door too quickly without that supporting large-scale marketing campaign.
    It had half the minutes in commercials that TLJ and Rogue One had. It was, and again, Iger is pretty accepting of this, poorly marketed and curated.

    The film itself, however, seems to be doing pretty favorably among those who watch it.

    ,
    No clue what you are referring to here. The new round of Star Wars films has openly used a ton of practical effects; more than the prequel trilogy employed. The do use CGI, but I think most would be rather surprised how much of what they are assuming is purely CGI isn't actually purely CGI at all.
    fathier.png

    That's what the Star Wars main saga does.
    The stand alone films don't do this. But the main saga films employ a narrative form referred to as chiastic narrative; this was started by Lucas and employed all throughout the original trilogy and the prequels.

    People have complains about this since Return of the Jedi came out, and the pattern became rather more obvious (most didn't notice that the second half of ESB was the first half of ESB in reverse for several years).

    The first film to be more freed up a bit to move about without directly answering by callbacks to previous film motifs and devices (a chiasmus of doing the same thing as before, but in an opposite or mirrored manner), will be 9, since 8 seemed to answer 4 film motifs in one film instead of the normal 2 film motif response that TFA started the trilogy off with.

    Everything Kylo does is an answer to motifs in the prequel trilogy wrapped around Anakin, and everything Rey does is an answer to motifs in the original trilogy wrapped around Luke.
    That's not done out of laziness; it's part of the fabric of the narrative structure of the main saga.

    As mentioned, the side films do not do this, and after 9; no film is technically obligated to operate on this method of narrative structure.

    I cannot relate to this. I've enjoyed every film, well, except for Rogue One. It wasn't bad. I just didn't really care about it one way or the other.
    Every other film, however, has been a brilliant ride of enjoyment for myself, and I think TLJ is about as unsafe as it could possibly get. If anyone thought TLJ was the safe way to go, they were pretty foolish, considering it has a rather visceral response among a small portion of the fanbase, but the campaign trail before the release stated that it wasn't a safe film many times, so it seemed rather well known that it was going to ruffle feathers. They seemed pretty happy with this, and no one has indicated any change of mind about this since its release. The whole crowd involved in the film seems rather pleased at the provocative angles TLJ took.

    Films are amazingly complicated to plan. On the best of days, films are an insanely chaotic endeavor. The first Star Wars was an absolute mess of plans going wrong at every possible turn. So far that I've seen, there's only been one logistical misstep that has happened, and that was with Solo - an error that Iger accepts and stated will not be happening again. It's also, according to Iger, entirely his fault because he was the one that chose to stick to that timeline.

    As I mentioned previous, I'm personally very pleased with the current output, and from everything I've read and seen, everyone involved really does get Star Wars rather Maclunkey well in my opinion.

    For one thing, Kasdan was a writer on TFA and Solo. I don't think you can really get anyone who is more familiar and gets Star Wars than Kasdan in the absence of Lucas, and honestly, even at that at some times it's arguable if Lucas bests Kasdan in certain aspects on that topic, as Kasdan seemed to bring quite a bit to Star Wars that Lucas wasn't able to develop on his own.

    As to Abrams, Abrams spent almost every day talking at long length with Kasdan and openly talked about how Kasdan was essentially his personal Obi Wan when it came to guiding him through Star Wars. By the end of everything, I'd say Abrams knew Star Wars pretty Maclunkey well. Not facts and wookipedia entries, no. That's what the rest of Lucasfilm is for, honestly - they actually scrub everything for consistency and accuracy, but in terms of its heart and soul, definitely.

    Rogue One was such a whirlwind of writers and directors that I can't really comment whether what we saw in the final cut came from anyone who gets Star Wars or not. It's actually hard to correctly identify who was responsible for the moment on the screen in that film due to the amazing hell that everyone went through in the most amazing game of hollywood hot potato I've ever seen - and the film didn't even suck as a result...which is just simply mind blowing.
    But I can't comment on who got Star Wars or not.

    Johnson, firstly, is a Star Wars fan - unlike Abrams was at the beginning - and then he further did a ton of research and discussed a lot with everyone at Lucasfilm during the building of his film, so I can't really think he doesn't get Star Wars either.

    Kasdan and his son wrote Solo, and the final director of it was Ron Howard. Now, firstly, again, Kasdan is about as Star Wars origin as it gets next to Lucas. He's really the other leg of Star Wars in many, many ways. As to Howard, Howard knows Lucas personally. He openly discussed his work with him, had him on the set even. Had Lucas make a few suggestions, Howard has said that Lucas has been supportive with Solo. So I think Howard got Star Wars pretty well.
    Actually, I think Howard probably got Star Wars better than any other director so far - it helps that he was active in the film industry during the original Star Wars and has worked with Lucas in the past, and knows him decently well as a colleague and friend over the years.

    As to Kennedy, Kennedy has been working with Lucas and Spielberg since 1982. She really knows what these guys think like, and how they tick.
    Both Lucas and Spielberg talk very favorably of Kennedy - which is really quite clear from the fact that both repeatedly employed her for their projects over nearly 3 decades.

    People in the film industry don't employ someone for nearly 3 decades who doesn't get what them.

    Also, Kennedy was installed by Lucas specifically because of this history, and he knew that he could trust her to curate this film and to get it - because she had always gotten him in the past, and they knew each other rather well.

    Then, behind everything, there's Lucasfilm. Lucasfilm is the Star Wars gate keeping company. They know Star Wars, and they are involved in every one of these films. They don't have absolute rule, but what they say comes with a lot of power and so far as everyone has talked, everyone has deferred to their judgement on countless points of facts and knowledge regarding Star Wars. I think Lucasfilm gets Star Wars.

    Arndt's script, which - keep in mind - he was not all together pleased with, was essentially a version of what Lucas was interested in for 7, which was the skeletal frame of what we got in 8.

    Further, preferring Arndt to write the film over Kasdan is an oddly juxtaposed preference next to the other one about preferring people who get Star Wars.
    Surely having one of the original writers working on the script over any other writer would be preferred for the aesthetic of supporting the position of staffing the films with people who get Star Wars.


    I'm sorry you are not enjoying yourself.
    I'm having a great time with these films. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  12. YetAnotherSuperweapon

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    Excellent post and very well written. You conveyed exactly how I feel about the sequel trilogy and if I could, I would give it a great post rating.

    However, I would like to correct one line: "Johnson, firstly, is a Star Wars fan - unlike Abrams was at the beginning".

    Abrams was a major fan of Star Wars, long before he directed TFA. He even almost passed on directing the movie because in his words, "I love Star Wars so much and felt like it was ... It was almost, on a personal level, a dangerous thing to get too close to something that you care so much about."
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    You are correct.
    I mixed up his comments about Star Trek with Star Wars in my head. Which...side note...if you're an Abrams fan, a Star Trek fan, and a Star Wars fan (*raises hand*), this past decade has been pretty outstanding! :) lol

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I gave you a like because I agree with a lot in your last few paragraphs. However, in my experience, associating political opinion with SW opinion is like associating age, OT fan vs PT fan ect .... as a argument or reasoning on who liked the ST or TLJ. I think it's more complex than that and trying to make that association doesn't do anything to benefit the SW fandom. I've actually seen it become a type of gatekeeping exercise which furthers division and creates preconceived ideas of who you are talking to instead of giving them a blank slate and actually reading and comprehending their arguments without pre judging them and making assumptions (this person must be sexist/SJW/racist/shill/ ect...).

    Obviously some people on here really like the ST and TLJ. It's very easy to veer off into the weeds when trying to determine how many people likes and dislikes these movies. Heck, it's hard to determine what a SW fan is (and it's been attempted, and again is generally inevitably used as a gatekeeping tool) and what a general audience fan is. I think there are probably thousands of variations. SW works and doesn't work for people for a variety of reasons. I have family and friends who simply don't like SW, period. I don't judge them, it's just not a conversation piece with them. I obviously don't include these people when referring to anything SW.

    Now, in saying that I agree with your last few paragraphs, it obviously could fly in the face of @Jayson 's reply. For the most part, it doesn't. I think it's very SW that how LFL/Disney handled things after TLJ is interpreted greatly on what side of the argument you fell. I don't necessarily blame LFL/Disney, but mostly the media that forced them to address it over and over again. It gave an impression, false or otherwise, that those who disliked TLJ largely fell in the racist sexist ect.. group... despite being a small group. Actually the continuation of insistence that those who dislike TLJ are a vocal minority lends to that idea. The terminology mirrors both for those who dislike TLJ and those bad actors who harass and threaten. I feel the distinction isn't adequately made by the media mostly, but I believe some of the blame falls on Disney/LFL for not addressing it when they see how the media is portraying a portion of their fans. In essence I believe it's more of a misunderstanding among fans... as someone who loves TLJ and the ST, you can't really understand how damaging (not the right word, disheartening, hurtful, discouraging ect are words I contemplated putting here and work imo) the talking points by media and LFL/Disney not making a greater effort to correct them and their rhetoric is for those who simply don't like TLJ. It alienates that portion of the fan base even more than the movie does imo.
     
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  15. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    I agree that the toxic minority has received far too much attention. However, when every controlled sample shows that the vast majority of people liked the film the amount of attention the 10/20% of people who didn't like it have received it overkill. I appreciate that people have legitimate concerns, but asking Lucasfilm to address the concerns of a tiny minority of people who didn't like it isn't realistic.

    I'm not really interested in arguing with people who didn't like the film about the size of the minority. The data is there for those are genuinely interested. However, Lucasfilm's job is to make movies people like. It's not placating tiny groups who didn't like it.
     
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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I feel like there's a bit of a misdirection with the idea that if someone disagrees with the portion of the fanbase who dislike TLJ, that this position is one likely based on a racist and misogynist minority who are not the accurate representation of the general disfavor opinions regarding TLJ.

    For me personally, I have interacted with no one who fits into this super-minority of hate-group behaving fans who didn't like TLJ.
    Everyone whom I have interacted with has disliked TLJ for aesthetic and narrative reasons; not for hate-group styled reasons.

    When I've watched youtube videos of criticisms regarding TLJ, I've not watched any that were this super-minority position.
    I've seen them in the side-bar and search results, but I simply don't click on those videos.

    What I was interested in were the regular opinions, so I looked at those; not this hyperbolic super-minority.
    I pretty much disagree with everything I've seen, heard, or read so far regarding those opinions.
    There are a few that I can't disagree with. I don't sympathize with them, but I can't disagree with them. That's because these are usually issues that arise out of a difference of aesthetic taste, or wish list items I don't hold (e.g. I really don't care about Snoke; never did, and I never cared about EU lore; never did...so things not coming around from the EU is not a huge issue for me like it is to some others).
    Where I write and disagree are in terms of narrative criticisms. I simply do not agree with anything I've seen, heard, or read so far on this subject, and I've been pretty open about that by my engagements in those conversations. I also do so by taking the time to fully articulate my reasons for my disagreement, while at the same time respecting the intelligence of the view I am responding to and affording them the credit of wanting to like a film, but not finding value in it given their current disposition and take on the film. I don't assume they will likely read my views and suddenly flip their opinions and views, but I write because it affords a different perspective. A critique; not a criticism.

    My disagreements with those who level criticisms at TLJ have been regarding those criticisms and I directly discuss those criticisms and my opinions regarding them. I even wrote a lengthy article about what I like about TLJ's narrative structure (which was a polished up version of a few posts I've made here on the same subject), and in so doing had to recognize the criticisms of the film, but you'll note (if you happen to read it - warning: long) that I'm addressing actual criticisms and not the hyperbolic hate-group like concepts, nor do I even attempt to paint those who dislike TLJ all under one brush.

    So I suppose this is me just saying, "Hang on. I actually have real disagreements with folks who earnestly didn't like TLJ for non-hate-group related reasons; just because I do not agree with them, doesn't mean that I think everyone who dislikes TLJ is the same, and it also doesn't mean that I think their opinions are bigoted views."

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #136 Jayson, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  17. darth sputnik

    darth sputnik Rebelscum

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    Here's my angle:

    I love SW. It has brought me so much joy and distraction from the ugliness in this world that it is downright miraculous. I have loved and defended every SW film released since I first saw ANH in the theater 42 years ago. My love is so strong that I even defended TLJ for a solid year as I desperately attempted to find the positive in anything labeled Star Wars...

    But a funny thing happened over the course of the last year. I saw my best friend (who LIVES for SW) become deeply depressed, angry and hopeless after TLJ. Then I saw RJ and other Disney people label those that disliked TLJ as "man babies", "Russian bots", "afraid of women", and implied that they were a lunatic fringe minority that loved Trump, supported racism and trolled and gamed the ratings systems on Rotten Tomatoes/Metacritic, etc. After a year of this I was sickened, dismayed and deeply disappointed that the people who created SW could stereotype and belittle their fans. And then I started to truly re-evaluate TLJ in a new light and came to the horrifying conclusion that it is a genuinely awful film that talks down to its audience and gleefully revels in obliterating virtually every element of the GFFA that I'd held sacred and dear. It is downright mean spirited, trolling vandalism to a universe I loved more than I can describe. It felt like a vicious attack, a prank at my expense --- and RJ would then gaslight anyone who had the gall to dislike it by pretending to be the diplomatic nice guy, all the while sliding the knife in by calling anyone who dare actually care about this silly science fiction property a "manbaby".

    So yeah, I loathe TLJ, but not for all the reasons we've been pigeonholed for. I love strong women characters (I adore Rey and Jyn Erso), I love having a black stormtrooper with the charisma of John Boyega. I love the multiethnic crew in Rogue One. I despise Trump and all that he stands for...but somehow now I'm part of this "vocal minority filled with racists and misogynists" because I despise TLJ. Here's a hint, Disney: that isn't how you bring back fans. It's how you alienate them for life.
     
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  18. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    That's cool how you call people you disagree with "arseholes in life," you are "frustrated they exist," it's "us against them" and then you call them "arseholes" once more - but then in the very same post accuse them of being the ones who are "intolerant" and have an "intolerant mentality." IMHO, your post displays a certain amount of intolerance of your own, my friend.
    I think you are right about LFL thinking their crap don't stink, but the corporate overlords at Disney realize they messed up. Iger himself admitted to making mistakes and told us there would be a slow down. So the Disney leadership group has taken responsibility for some of the issues and is working to address them.
    The dislike for E8 is not about race or gender, despite how desperately some people want to make it seem like it is. If it was about race and gender, we would have seen the outcry much sooner, certainly after Rogue One. But Rouge One was a fantastic movie and there was no outcry.

    Based on the public reaction and the most reliable, well respected polling data sites, it is clear a large number of people didn't like this film. Solo suffered because of it. Merchandising suffered because of it. Disney knows LFL dropped the ball here and they are moving in to change things up a little. The future looks bright, but let's not put lipstick on a pig.
     
    #138 Wolfpack, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  19. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    It's really getting tiring to see this silly claim. It's always been 100% clear that Rian Johnson's comments were about toxic sexists and bigots. There's no ambiguity here.
    This never happened. There are toxic fans who are attacking people over a film. No reasonable person is lumping every person who disliked the film in with that toxic group so why are you choosing to feel victimized?
    I can only assumed this type of thinking exists because of YouTube? It's so disconnected from reality it's difficult to understand.
    [​IMG]

    This is what is kind of hilarious. You complain that you're being unfairly grouped with sexist/bigots, but when you offer your subjective opinion about TLJ you say it "talks down" to the audience as if you're simply too smart to like it. I guess the 89% of the audience are simply dumb? Is that your generalization?
     
    #139 DailyPlunge, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  20. darth sputnik

    darth sputnik Rebelscum

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    Yeah, it talks down to its audience. Gee, abusing animals is bad. Thanks for pointing that out to us, Rose. Yeah, arms dealers are bad. Gosh, what a brilliant observation again, Rose. Meanwhile, all our favorite new characters are talked down to -- Poe is now a hot-headed, mutiny-leading jerk (thank you paper-thin new character Holdo for putting that buffoon in his place). Finn is now a simpleton deserter who is too dumb to see that Canto Bight is bad. Thank you, unlikable new character who tases him and explains war profiteering to him like he's an infant.

    Yes, yes this film talks down to its audience and its characters. Often. And in slowly spelled out detail. Because RJ and his new, awesome characters are smarter than the existing characters and audience. Funny how virtually ever other SW movie can address similar issues involving the ambiguity of war, female empowerment, etc without spelling it out with giant crayon letters.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2019, Original Post Date: May 18, 2019 ---
    Also, please dont accuse me of calling 89% of the audience "dumb". I did no such thing. If anything, I'm jealous of people that like TLJ. Unfortunately, I can't jedi mind trick myself into seeing it as anything other than a travesty.
     
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