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How do you feel about Jedi "Power Levels"?

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by cawatrooper, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    To borrow a bit of a concept from Dragon Ball, how do you feel about the "power levels" of the Jedi, and how did/do you interpret them?

    I realize this is kind of a weird question, so let me clarify: when I was a kid, I was always kind of just under the impression that Jedi like Obi Wan and Anakin were the protagonists of the series, but that they weren't especially exceptional. Not that they were weak by any means, but I always thought that Jedi like Luminara/Mundi/Windu/Fisto... you know, all of the other Jedi we see in the films, were of varying ability and that Obi Wan and Anakin just kind of fit in the middle somewhere.

    Also, I'd note that while Anakin is considered to be the "Chosen One" and is definitely a war hero in the Clone Wars, I always just felt that he never really achieved his full potential among the Jedi, and that his status as a hero came more from his scrappiness and heart rather than pure skill or power.

    But now, I see all kinds of discussions citing canon material about Obi Wan being one of the best swordsmen of his time (and notable in history, as well), of Anakin being one of the most powerful force users, etc. Not that they're necessarily more powerful than Yoda, but they're both pretty close to the top.

    I'm just kind of curious- how did you see the Jedi protagonists? Were they special in that they were entangled in this web of conspiracy? Were they touched by fate? Were they truly, historically notably powerful beings?

    And finally- how do you like to think of them? Because personally, I like the idea that Obi Wan may not have been the strongest member of the order by a long shot, yet it's still up to him to continue the legacy of the force. I think it transitions far better to Guinesses' character better, and is just a better all around story.

    Anyway, does this make sense? Hope it doesn't seem rambly, and I'm really curious how other people think.
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I don't care for the power levels in the way people seem to discuss them in relation to RPGs.
    "They can't do that! They only have 135 Jedi Points!"
    As if you have to reach a certain level to unlock lifting rocks or forcing pulling a saber. Even though lift, pull etc seem like they would be the most basic of moves.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    That's true, that's one big gripe I have with the "Rey's a Mary Sue" crowd.

    I guess I should mention then that I could see Obi Wan or Anakin being more powerful in the moment than Yoda if the force willed it. But, just in general, I still just kind of prefer them as average jedi.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I certainly don't disagree with you, but I think it's such a grey area that is hard to define.

    Maybe Yoda is just more powerful in the force because he's old enough to not be as jaded by the changes of the Jedi ways.
    Obi-Wan is born of the most flawed era of the council so he's always going to be too rigid in it.

    In all honesty, the force doesn't make sense in how it works and I don't think it should make sense lol.
    It does what the author needs it to do lol
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    That's fair, and I really really like that mystical nature of it.

    But I think that in some ways, the vessel that the Force works through can be sculpted to better channel it. While I don't bat an eye at Rey lifting some rocks, I do think that there are some ways that a Jedi can train to become more powerful.

    I think it's interesting, though, how many people have this idea of Jedi going to the Force Gym essentially to train. If the Dark Side is fueled by anger, and to train is to apparently focus that anger, wouldn't it make sense that the Light side be fueled by something along the lines of focus or compassion, rather than simply "practice"?

    And if that's the case, could Anakin's standout aspect as a Jedi be because he was already tapping into the dark side a bit all along?
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I just don't think we should try to define it. I like that the force is essentially it's own being and the way the current canon is going, it sounds more like the light side is just tapping into the force and flowing with it where the dark is more about trying to harness and control it, to make it do what YOU want. If you look at how Lucas structured the force around Eastern philosophies/religions and new age hippie nonsense that a kid in the 60s would experience....it kind of makes sense.

    There's definitely something to your last point and I think Rebels and CW tap into that.
     
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  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I see where you're coming from. I guess I should be more clear that I don't necessarily think these theories are correct, but just alternative theories given that we both seem to agree that there is (and shouldn't be) one single way to define the Force.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I see the Force as any other talent, like music (for example). Everyone has the potential, but very few can become truly exceptional. Some are just born with latent ability and only have to hone their craft, while others need to struggle tirelessly to improve. The effectiveness of each Force user then is as varied as the people themselves.

    It’s a kind of reflection of who they are as people. Anakin is passionate and emotional and that’s how he implements the Force: blunt and aggressive. Obi-Wan is an intellectual. His use is tailored to the contemplative and methodical. Yoda is more of a philosopher and excels at the abstract, existential elements. One isn’t necessarily superior to the others, just different aspects of the same whole.

    The Force is something that surrounds and penetrates everyone. My take is that it gathers around some more than others based on how attune they are at sensing it. It’s a matter of perception then. The stronger you can feel the Force - operate on its wavelength (so to speak), the more attracted to you it is, the more you can interact, and the more ‘powerful’ you are with it.
     
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  9. Mortis

    Mortis Rebel Official

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    I hate Dragon Ball Z type of comparisons about Jedi. One reason I hate to watch Star Wars Theory because that is the way he sees Star Wars. Kylo Ren stops one blaster shot, Well now watch Darth Vader stop 1,000 and then throw them back!!!!!!"
     
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    This. So much this.
    He's very defensive of this too.
     
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  11. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Damn right, that guy is unbearable when it comes to his perception of Star Wars, especially the force.
     
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  12. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I played RPG's a lot as a kid/young man. Haven't in almost 2 decades.

    I remember when entering that realm, I found it odd that power came with levels, but I accepted it because that's how RPG's work. Otherwise there would be no sense of progression, and in some ways it made sense.

    I don't believe raw power should be scaled though. At leas that was never my perception watching any SW. People had power and then they had to develop that potential. But when gaming I fell in line because that's simply how the game is played. It was an inaccuracy, but one that was essential to the game play.

    Skill however was a different thing. Over time I came to an understanding and peace with gaming. It isn't that their power grows, so much that their skill is refined. I often associated it to sport or art. A talented person is great, but usually can't succeed on talent alone. The added "power points" in rpg's to force powers was not due to them growing in power, but rather, in the ease of use of some powers. The truly talented can make feats of skill look effortless. So if you start off with at level one with 10 force points, and it takes 5 points to pull a lightsaber to your hand, that's half your power. If at level 10 you have 100 points, it's only 5% of your power. This isn't indicative of your raw power, it's indicative of how much easier it has become over multiple applications.

    Later editions of SW games added skill points, increasing the odds of success. I thought that was fine because it added that it require less effort (vitality) and there was less chance of failure due to their skill (practice).

    Okay, that now established, how did I view Kenobi and Anakin?

    I thought Anakin had the most raw power of every Jedi of the OT era. However, he had the least experience, skill due to practice, but was growing fast using them often during the Clone Wars. I believed that Jedi power came very much with confidence, and when one saw that they could affect the world, believe they could affect the world, and were instructed in different methods of affecting the world, their skill grew. Not their power, but their skill. Power was fixed... midchlorians if you will.

    So using scaled numbers, I saw Anakin as 100% for being chosen one in pure power. Yoda second, possibly as a partial Chosen One, but likely in the 70% power. Mace, Ashoka, Kenobi, Luminari, Kit Fisto, Mundi, (not in any particular order) ect... were likely all exceptional at between 50 and 65%. There were undoubtedly others who fell under 50% power (law of averages would say there'd have to be to average out that 50-70% is something special). So normal or average would have probably fell in the 35% to 65% range. I was always curious about those who fell under those power levels.

    In the EU, now legends, I always felt Corran Horn was one of those who fell just a bit under. I enjoyed Luke struggling to find places for those who were specialists in their talents because their potential wasn't great enough to make them jacks of all trades like Obi-Wan and be good at pretty much everything. But I'm off topic.

    Right now, I'd say Rey is somewhere between Yoda ( as a floor) and Anakin as a ceiling, but a ceiling she could potentially crash if she is indeed a Chosen One, but a different kind of Chosen One. That puts Kylo in a similar stratosphere.

    So Kenobi was gifted force user, in the upper echelon of average. His skill with a lightsaber I never consider to be exceptional, but then again, maybe they were. It's not something as concrete as marksmanship for example, where you can evaluate based on how many bulls eyes, at greater distance, over a smaller period of time. Dueling is harder to evaluate in my opinion, and is probably more based on whether you survived or not lol. It's more akin to boxing, looking at win/loss/ko (or kills in dueling's case). That inherently makes it harder to evaluated due to the abstract skill of his opponent. In SW with Jedi, it's even harder due to the application of force powers and trickery in the duel. Someone with more force powers could win the duel on the application of altering the field of battle in a way his opponent can't anticipate or defend. So Kenobi's skill as a duelist would have more to do with the practice he put into his lightsaber training, but also his ability to use force powers to boost himself, weaken his opponent or change the field of battle, manipulate his environment.

    Now it's entirely possible that the narrative simply followed Kenobi and Anakin because they were central to the story. But if there were thousands of Jedi, and we only see a couple dozen, I would assume the couple dozen are probably mostly among the top 100 or so, because Anakin being a Chosen one, and Yoda being exceptional, we can judge their ability and power in contrast to those 2.

    So yeah, to me throughout the OT and PT there were two aspects. Raw power and skill. Skill seems to be replace by faith in the ST... or alternatively maybe there's simply a 3rd way to "rate" a Jedi, and it's all 3 of power, skill and faith. I'm not sure anymore. I'd assume in future RPG's, due to Rey, they'd likely make skills accessible based on a characters "Widsom" attribute, which traditionally ties in to faith in RPGs. I'm not sure how that will look, but after the ST I could see a bunch of revised books hitting the market to reflect that change in universe.

    So that's kind of my problem with Rey, but at the same time it does make a kind of sense. I struggled with it more earlier because to me they "broke" rules, but even as I thought that I realized they broke RPG rules, not necessarily story rules. I had to separate my understanding of the SW universe within gaming, unlearn what I had learned, to come to a peace with Rey. I believe anything could be quantifiable, made into science, if you properly understand the mechanics. That's kind of what RPG's do, the DM and rule books meta game (look at the game outside of the eyes of the characters, but in our real life) and apply the rules that are at work in the universe, what the characters in the story don't yet know, and apply them. It's like the DM is the Force and understands how it all works. However, the DM is above the Force, because in game he can affect he world, and even the Force, the narrative, at his whim. Doing this visibly or excessively however pulls the players out of the experience. It's a careful balance to keep the players suspending their disbelief and buying into the game. To play an RPG, rules need to be established to make the game work, even if they're only known to the game master.

    It's story telling 101.

    Anyway, I rambled on much more than I thought I would lol. I hope my answer makes sense to those reading it lol.
     
    #12 Sparafucile, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2019
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  13. JediMasterRaspberry

    JediMasterRaspberry Rebel Trooper

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    I'm disappointed that Rey and Kylo Ren have not displayed any enhanced athletic skills that the Prequel Jedi and Luke had.

    Where are the high jumps and somersaults?
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Too risky.
    Both are planning on some hanky panky after this whole "war" is settled and no one wants to take a crack at it with a pulled hamstring
     
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  15. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Unless it's an RPG we're talking about, then get rid of them. Not every story has to be about the gain of power in quantised increments. Some (like Rey's story, or Miles Morales', or Moana's, or Wonder Woman's, etc.) can be about finding the strength within you.
     
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  16. JediMasterRaspberry

    JediMasterRaspberry Rebel Trooper

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    Did I accidentally post something saucy? Fifty Shades of the Force. :oops:
     
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  17. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    First post! Hi everyone!

    I believe that the force and someone being "strong in the force" was all used as needed depending what the story required*. For someone who was described as being very powerful by Yoda, I didn't see Anakin do anything out of the ordinary that other Jedi didn't also do. I haven't seen any Jedi do much of anything special specific to themselves, in fact. They all jump high, move things with the force and fight with lightsabers. This is in the movies. I haven't been able to keep up with all the TV shows and such.

    * Why does Obi Wan even have to duel with Grevious? Obi Wan has the force, Grevious doesn't. Obi Wan should have been able to immobilize him instantly or do any number of things to defeat him. Same with Kylo Ren fighting Finn. Why was this even a fight? The filmmakers play with the abilities of the force loosey goosey as needed.
     
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  18. Someguy

    Someguy Clone

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    I personally dislike the way the ST has handled the force. I get that every Star Wars movie adds something new to the force, I freaking love how Kylo Ren can stop laser bolts in mid air, freeze and knock out his opponents, but Leia flying in space and Rey mastering the force with no training broke my suspension of disbelief. Even George Lucas was carefuI with Anakin in the prequels, as he didn't have him doing anything extraordinary in terms of force powers despite the constant remainders that he's the Chosen One.
     
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  19. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I wonder if that rumored Luke teaching Leia about the force scene will help make Leia's "flying" more palatable?
     
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  20. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    There's an interesting tension outlined in the New Jedi Order books, which of course aren't canon, but their discussion of the Force is still helpful. In these books, some Jedi (like Anakin Solo) put much more emphasis on personal training, honing skills, using the Force as a tool. Others, like Jacen Solo, put more emphasis on being one with the Force, getting in tune with it and following its paths, rather than treating it as a skill or a tool.

    I think we see the Force treated both ways in the films. There is great power to be had when Jedi train to hone their skills; there's also great power when Jedi simply "let go" and allow the Force to guide. Luke's power increases when he trains with Yoda on Dagobah; Rey's power increases when she learns to let go and allow the Force to lead.
     
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