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How does TROS tie up the Saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Jaxxon, Dec 23, 2019.

  1. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    SPOILERS from here on out!

    Let's talk about this movie as a thematic conclusion to the Saga. In my opinion, The Rise of Skywalker ties together the Saga in so many different ways. I'm sure you noticed things that I missed. In what ways do you see this movie tying up the themes of the Saga?

    For me, this Saga is essentially focused on the conflict between the Skywalkers and Palpatine. From the first film, the Skywalkers have been in the foreground, and Palpatine's machinations have been in the background.

    But at the end of TROS, Rey--a Palpatine--takes the Skywalker name.
    Palpatine has become Skywalker. The two opposing sides are made one. It's balance.

    To me, that's some beautiful poetry in the Saga?

    Let's keep this thread positive. There are lots of other threads for critiques of the movie.

    How do you see TROS concluding the themes of the Skywalker Saga?
     
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  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    It would take a long time to outline all of the ways TRoS wraps up the Episodic (Skywalker Saga) films because the connections are broad and vast, but one significant way that it ties everything together is that it does ultimately have Ben fulfill the desire he expressed in The Force Awakens to finish what his grandfather started; it might not have happened the way that he thought it would (since, at the time, he was still entrenched in the Dark and being manipulated by Palpatine through the guise of Vader), but it still happened when he gave his own life to save Rey (someone he loved) from dying just as Anakin had wanted to do with Padme.
     
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    This is a great thread topic that I will revisit many times in the future when I finally get to watch all 9 films and fully digest the story.

    I think the biggest theme to me is how each character deals with the weight of their heritage or family name. I was very skeptical of The Emperor returning and not esctatic regarding the rumors of Rey Palpatine. But JJ totally pulled it off in TROS and now 7,8,9 can sit next to 1-6 and we can have discussions like this.

    Think about it, the heroes who never succumb to the Darkside are the one’s who grow up under the radar of who they are (Rey, Luke, Leia). Where the villains are the ones who know who they are from day one (Palpatine, Anakin, Kylo).

    Rey, Luke and Leia grow up as ‘normal’ people (in different social situations), but are not pegged as the chosen one until they are adults.

    Anakin and Ben are thrust upon being ‘the chosen one’ early on and that pressure does not lead them to a normal childhood. Palpatine is straight evil from the minute we meet him.

    So the theme is the more you push someone young to be something you want them to be, then the opposite will happen (Anakin and Ben). Where Rey, Luke, and Leia became who they are on their own and fulfilled their destiny.

    It’s actually a lesson in real life when I see parents pushing their kids in sports for their own gratitude. Let everyone be who they are as that’s exactly what the heroes of the Saga are.
     
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  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    ^ Now that's a really cool read on things, so kudos.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    It is, and I wish the franchise made this more clear in the public message, because though Star Wars is really a soap opera between Skywalkers and Palpatines like the Potter's vs. Voldemort with a side of Malfoy is what Harry Potter is about, that is NOT clear as the three trilogy film arc basis.

    What Star Wars comes off as, generally, is the Luke and Vader story.

    If Voldemort was Harry's dad, and Malfoy was Voldemort's puppet master, but how everyone thinks of Harry Potter right now in reality was how people understood the film series even though it's really about Potters and Malfoys....it would be a bit confusing to anyone who wasn't a Potter fan.

    That's pretty much where we are.
    And I think it's only so confusing because Star Wars has shifted what it's focus and core story is about several times.
    ANH gave one impression, ESB + ROTJ gave an entirely different story (it really threw some folks off at first).
    PT went hard left, but folks could mostly hang because it was the "Baby Vader" show - cool - still the Luke/Vader story.

    Then we get to the ST and no Vader, but Kylo, so we're good - we can hang with the Grandson of Vader show - still the Vader vs...well ... not Luke...hmm...we'll see where this goes.

    And then it goes hard left and focuses on Palpatine in TROS (which...I LOVE!), and the famous Luke and Vader show confuses non-fans entirely because that's just not the public bumper sticker identity of Star Wars.

    Palps is a big identity of Star Wars for fans. Not for the public.

    Big bad guy? Vader. Vader. Vader. Vader. 100% Vader.

    If you made Vader come back from the dead, even though it would make ZERO sense to fans, the PUBLIC would have lost their dang minds and gone HOLYSHITE mode because THAT is their McDonald's and bumper sticker level familiarity knowledge of power, bad, and image of Star Wars.

    I want to be SO clear on this. I LOVE this film, I LOVE this trilogy, and I LOVE the Skywalker vs. Palpatine core, and I think the films all together REALLY make it clear that's what this story is, in the long-run, really about (not counting the morals...just the focal tangents of subjects).

    However, I'm really bummed that the general public does NOT have this identity of Star Wars. They generally don't know this Star Wars because they've been made so far apart from each other in years, and catching that tangent requires having a great memory (for the general public), or bothering to rewatch the other 6 films...which...um...yeah...not going to happen.

    What would have helped maybe would have been like matinee showings of the old 6 films on rotation with door prize lotteries (free trip to Disney World, etc..) and just running ads on that over and over during the whole ST, or at least leading up to TROS, so that the general public could be reminded and brought up to speed on the actual tangent which focuses more on Palps vs Skys, and not Luke vs Vader, with an extra bit of stories about baby Vader.

    The general public gives two-s**ts about Rey being Palpatine's granddaughter. That isn't a finale shocker for the public.

    Vader showing up, even if it's like a clone or some crap. THAT is general public finale shocker.

    The latter they understand. The former...nnnnot really.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #5 Jayson, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
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  6. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    I must be honest. I was a little bummed that the saga didn't conclude the way I wanted it to in my head. My biggest worry going into the The Rise of Skywalker was that it wouldn't give us an ending that is much different or better than what we got in Return of the Jedi. And this ending did feel a little too
    similar to me.
     
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  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think this is the brilliance of SW in that it can be viewed on so many perspectives. We see it alittle deeper than casual fans as the story and characters are what drive our interest. But a 10 year old kid (which we all were at one time) can just watch it as a popcorn fun action movie. So I'm cool with some of the fans watching it one way, and other fans watching it another way. And then there are the 3rd type of fans who continue to watch the movies and just whine, nitpick, and are never pleased (one of my best friends does this with EVERY SW movie). I try at this point to sort of tune them out because they are becoming a more vocal group with the rise of social media and platform to complain 24/7. I guess my point is I don't know if I want every SW fan analyzing the movies in this type of thread, just like I don't like to talk sports with every sports fan, or politics with anyone who votes. Not to sound snooty, but I'd rather this thread be a small group of people who really delve into the movies and make me take a look at them from a different perspective, instead of my whining best friend who is mad that this and that didn't line up with the EU books he read 20 years ago. lol
     
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  8. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    This. That's what I like about Rey being a Palpatine. There's a bit a irony in that what Palpatine wanted for Rey. She is doing the exact opposite. Meaning you choose your own destiny. It doesn't have to be choosen for you by some prophecy. It doesn't contradict TLJ's message as Rey Nobody, to me it adds to it. Everything she has done has been by her own choice. In hindsight, I think the message that the ST ends the Saga should've been from the get go though.
     
    #8 Andrew Waples, Dec 24, 2019
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I like it as well, but ... it does hurt the saga as a sales pitch to the general public.

    I'm not talking about people who are complaining.
    I'm talking about the general public not caring because the message is hard to punch out in a straight forward bullet and put on a bumper sticker.

    What's Superman about? Superman vs. Lex Luther.
    Avengers? Avengers vs. Thanos.
    Matrix? Neo vs. Smith.
    Harry Potter? Harry vs Voldemort.
    Lord of the Rings? Frodo vs. Sauron.
    Batman? Batman vs. Joker.

    Star Wars? Luke vs Vader. ... well...no. Well. Yes, but no - kind of. I mean, yes, that's what all of the stickers are about, but the story's actually a guy you don't see on stickers who was a brilliant politician who made Vader, died and came back to life and was defeated by his granddaughter who was saved by Vader's grandson, and Luke's nephew even though out of 20 hours of film, Palpatine is in it 48 minutes while Vader/Anakin is in it for 2.5 hours.

    It's just...the main villain isn't really...well...there, and the idea of heroes changing over and over again to entirely new heroes each time makes it even more muddy watered.

    And it would be nice if that message was a bit more clear to the general public, because following that through the films isn't easy for the public.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  10. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    See, I like that SW doesn’t have a specific story as that’s what gives it layers. I am not a huge fan of The Anakin story in the PT as I feel he was miscast and some his motivations don’t make sense. But I still enjoy the PT on a macro story level and watch Palpatine transform the galaxy over 3 movies. I love the Senate scenes, the Jedi Order, and it really gives the OT more depth when you watch the Rebels vs Empire knowing how it all started. Now on the other hand, you can have a fan watch the PT solely for the Anakin story too. That’s why I say SW is not your typical Blockbuster (hence why it’s the only franchise I still care about in the era of shallow movies) and that’s cause there’s a lot of content that appeal to different types of fans.
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    As a student of textual exegesis and anthropology, I very much love these attributes as well. The simple complexity of Star Wars is what keeps me forever entranced staring at its narrative abyss.

    I just wish it was easier for public consumption.
    Even the Bible, one of the most obscure narratives ever put into tome has the brilliant public marketing of it being between the god and the devil (unless you're Jewish, then its more, 's**t happens. Try not to screw it up more like a dumba**').

    The OT is the most public friendly. It's like the gospels. You have the peasant savior and esteemed and powerful, faceless evil whom is defeated with love and compassion.

    It's simple. Straight forward, and all of the complexity comes from tiered meaning; not a tiered plot.

    Everything the PT and ST aren't. Again, I like the PT, and love the ST.

    I just wish the marketing had done better at laying the landscape out better on all of them - but especially on the ST. I don't think the ST marketed its story very well.

    Star Wars will remain huge as Luke vs Vader, but Rey vs. Kylo is a tad bit more of a whimper...though still better in message than Anakin vs. ... um ... well...mostly himself.

    I feel the marketing for TROS should have had way more Palp lines from the PT and OT, and pumped up the emotional relationship between Kylo and Rey instead of focusing on cool action scenes, old movie montages, and that this was the end.

    That is a vague message, and the plot relies on a complex awareness of soap opera relationships to really connect with it.

    If you had one ad focusing on Palp being back, and another focusing on Kylo and Rey, and toss the action aside, that would work a lot better at creating curiousity. Drama.

    A bunch of action shots, voice overs, and montages doesn't really convey dramatic tension.
    That's just any old action film ad.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #11 Jayson, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
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  12. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    Another way this movie really managed to bring things to a satisfying end:

    The villain is finally the Sith with no disguise. It's not the Sith secretly working behind the Republic, it's not the Sith secretly working behind the Empire.

    It's the Sith themselves in numbers, and they're no longer looking to deceive and manipulate. They've waited and amassed their forces, and they are here to take the galaxy by sheer force.

    I grew up in conservative Christian culture when "end times" stories were all the rage. In every end times story, the Antichrist would work his way into power in secret, through politics and deception. But there would always be a point at the end--usually after the Antichrist is presumed dead--when the mask comes off and he's no longer pretending to be the kind ruler. He's plainly the Devil, out in the open, and it's time for the final battle.

    To me, at least, that moment--the dropping of the mask to reveal the true evil--is a fundamental trope. To me, Rise of Skywalker is THAT moment.
     
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  13. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Some basic thoughts that I've yet to fully explore, but have sprang to mind in seedling form:

    The Palpatine redemption by Skywalker arc that is basically the bookending of the entire saga is the core of TROS's thematic conclusion. I'm still amazed at the brilliance of that idea and how it all joins together across all nine episodes.

    I noticed that TROS itself is a thematic expansion of ROTS, centered on the conversation between Palpatine and Skywalker during the opera scene. When Anakin's grandson Ben is introduced to Palpatine at the beginning of the "conversation" of TROS it's under the theme of using the dark side to cheat death in a way that is unnatural, echoed in the line used by Palpatine in both scenes.

    Then as Anakin's grandson is ending the "conversation" of TROS, he uses the force to keep the one he loves from dying. And it turns out you can learn this power from the Jedi, after all. The conversation swayed Anakin to turn to the dark side out of love, in effort to save Padme, but ended up causing Padme to die; but the conversation swayed Anakin 2.0 to turn to the light side out of love, in effort to save Padme 2.0, and ends up causing Padme 2.0 to live.

    I notice that the PT (building into the third episode) is about loss; the loss of love, the loss of identity, the loss of the name Skywalker; the ST (also building into the third episode) is about finding; the finding of love, the finding of identity, the finding of the name Skywalker.

    The mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship which is the central theme of the first episode TPM comes back to find its thematic culmination in the mutually beneficial symbiotic Skywalker/Palpatine relationship of the final episode.

    In the first episode TPM, Skywalker leaves home to become a Jedi, in the last episode TROS, Skywalker comes home after becoming a Jedi.

    The final dialogue of TROS directly relates to the themes central to Rey across the ST: "There's been no one for so long" is her theme in episode seven. "Who are you?" is her theme in episode eight. "Rey Skywalker" is her theme in episode nine. Even the actions are thematically connected; for example Rey first gives no family name, then turns to see Luke and Leia which then causes her to claim the Skywalker name, reflecting her journey through the ST in first having no family name, then turning to find Luke and then Leia her teachers, who through kindness allow her to come to the realization of her identity as of the same spirit - Rey Skywalker.
     
    #13 iostream, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
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  14. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    ^ Great analysis.

    TRoS, in telling its story the way that it does in expanding upon choices that Rian Johnson made with The Last Jedi and endeavoring to link all 8 of the films that precede it, makes both Rey and Ben Solo the heroes of the Sequel Trilogy as a whole even though Ben starts the story out as a villain; with the context of TRoS in mind, The Force Awakens becomes as much his story as it is Rey's and gives his decision to kill his father much more pathos and 'weight' because that moment ultimately becomes the start of a journey that will ultimately lead to Ben being able to fulfill his stated desire of finishing what his grandfather started but in a way that no-one, least of all himself, expected.

    It's a brilliant, if retroactive, linking of all 3 films in the Sequel Trilogy, and one that also links the Trilogy's 3 installments to both the Prequel Trilogy and the Classic Trilogy in ways that I honestly don't think could've been foreseen even if people would have liked there to have been a more defined narrative 'plan' for the Trilogy from the beginning.
     
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  15. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Very nicely written and outlined. :D
    To help you along with more thoughts and analysis that you'll likely do as time goes on.

    This shows every primary and secondary connection between all of the films, with 9 in the center because it round-robins through the rest of the films.
    I made this back after TLJ, so there's an update I'd like to do because Padme and Leia belong added in at this point in light of 9, but the rest of this map is still valid.

    star wars chiastic map.PNG

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  16. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Interesting. Thank you, I'll see if any correlation jumps out to me. I figure given the complexity of the films it may take time to find some proverbial footing.
     
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    It does!

    I haven't finished, and I started years ago.
    Part of that is because the films weren't finished, though.

    Now that it is...game on!

    I'm actually going to be working with @Swerve83 (a friend of mine) over this coming summer to endeavor to make a video that compiles all of the scenes together across all of the films. :D

    If you want more on the subject, hit me up. I have piles of stuff on it, and written about it a few places.
    The most succinct place I've written it all down in top-level mapping is in this thread.
    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....-in-the-history-of-chiastic-literature.56268/

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  18. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Thanks for the offer. That's a great piece, I just read it. I'm actually quite familiar with forms of writing such as acrostic, chiastic and the like. I've used the form myself in multiple projects. I've even formed a method I call the infinite poem but I'm keeping the structure secret until I find the right name with which to form the world's first infinite poem. Don't need any poetic scoundrels stealing my idea.

    I'll likely take you up on the offer in time, but right now I'm in the first stages of the proverbial meal. Just starting light and savoring the simpler flavors before moving on to the heavier more meaty stuff, if you know what I mean. At any rate, thanks again I do appreciate it and I look forward to your input I can tell you it's the kind of input that I most enjoy.
     
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  19. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Also let me know when you develop anything on the subject, as I would love to read it!
    I'm following you as well. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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