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SPOILER How Palpatine survived and his motives to stay hidden

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Bradford Tyllestad, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Are you saying while he was falling he didnt have enough time to use the Force to transfer his essence to anything. Think it is clear that although the explosion of Death Star 2 doesnt turn the whole thing into dust. Pieces, very large pieces we certainly falling all over. We know in multple canon sources that the Death Star explosions dont turn the whole things to dust.
     
  2. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Commander

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    I believe that DigificWriter was saying that in TROS that Palpatine didn't have an opportunity to transfer his essence. I'm saying, if he had an opportunity in ROTJ, which seems ridiculous to me, then he should have in TROS. If he could do it while falling down a shaft then he could have while standing around in TROS. In both circumstances he was just shooting lightning and not much else. With that in mind, there could be a rock or a lovely broche on Exegol with Palpatine's essence in it and he could just keep coming back like a bad penny.
     
  3. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    My belief is that Palpatine had already done the Sith Magic preservation thing long BEFORE his death in Return of the Jedi.
     
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  4. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    He hadn't, you're transferring your soul from one body to another. If he'd done that before his death, he wouldn't be alive during ROTJ.
    • Sheer arrogance. The Sith are drunk on power, and as a result they're self-destructive. Maul, Dooku, Vader, Sidious all lose because of this.
    • Because he wanted his granddaughter to become the next Sith Lord within Bane's lineage, and his victory seemed inevitable. The Resistance would've lost, had it not been for the 'Free Worlds'. If they hadn't shown up, her friends and allies would've kept on being picked off, and she would've had no other choice than becoming Empress, in a misguided attempt to save them.
    Luke literally says to her "confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi". It's up to Rey to face Palpatine and decide her destiny, not Luke. Not to mention, it's clearly a Sith secret that the Jedi don't know about.
     
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  5. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Commander

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    If that's the case, and Palpatine had returned long ago (since he created Snoke, which was years ago) then he had time to do that voodoo that he do long before the events of TROS. He should be able to return again. His death in ROTJ seemed definitive, but was reversed. His death in TROS seems definitive but that could be reversed as well.
     
  6. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    You are reaching. Really, really, really bad.

    This film essentially retcons ROTJ and Palp's interest in Luke. He was just as arrogant then. He didn't say "strike me down so I can take over your body" to Luke. It would have been a dumb ass thing to say.

    Just like it was dumb to say to Rey. He spent 30 years plotting his return, only to let the cat out of the bag? Cmon.

    Also, why was he not more interested in his son? If Palp is so arrogant and interested in bloodlines all of the sudden, why was the Jedi hunter only after Rey? Why not take Sheev JR to Palp?


    Wait a second. So you are willing to buy everything this film sold you, but not the idea that Luke learned some secrets of the Sith in the past 30 years? You are willing to buy that Palpatine survived ROTJ, has a HUGE fleet he was able to hide, the convoluted Rey Palaptine story....but not accept that Luke learned a few things about the Sith?

    Especially when everything we know about his time post ROTJ was a journey to learn about the force??

    But you buy him saying "Yo Rey, Leia and I knew you were a Palpatine the whole time. You really didn't?"

    haha cmon man!

    These are objectively huge issues with the film.

    You can buy that Palpatine is an idiot (telling Rey his plan and warning the galaxy) but not that Luke could have gained wisdom, either in his travels or as a force ghost?

    If Palpatine was the villain we are to believe, he would not have warned the galaxy (lol) and he would have just let Rey kill him.


    It was PAINFULLY obvious and bad writing that they needed the audience to understand what was going on.

    I just think having Luke give her a "tip" would have been less cringe-worthy...



    Either way, this rumor would have been a much, much, much better ending and way to handle Palpatine

     
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  7. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    It didn't retcon that scene whatsoever. His goal in ROTJ is still the same as it ever was: to turn Luke to the dark side, and have him kill his father. He portrays himself as a weak, defenceless old man and convinces Luke to try to strike him down in order to save his friends. However, Palpatine knows Vader will defend him and Luke will be forced to duel him. Palpatine wants to replace Vader with a new apprentice.

    Palpatine only wants Ren or Rey to kill him in TROS because he's little more than a reanimated corpse, he has no other choice. He doesn't actually want to live in another's body, hence why when he discovers the dyad he drains Ben and Rey instead.
    Because his son was an adult now. He's not easily manipulated and malleable like a child. He already rejected his father.
    This was a secret of Bane passed down over a millennium, the Jedi didn't even know the Sith were alive then, and no Sith would put it in a holocron.

    I'm not reaching with any of this, you are just ignoring valid explanations because you want to dislike this film even more.
     
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  8. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Commander

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    I have some thoughts on your post. At the time ROTJ was made, I believe what you said about the Emperor getting Luke to strike him down is accurate. However, with TROS, it could be viewed that he wanted Luke to actually strike him down in anger, like the offer he gave Rey. Maybe?

    The thing about Palpatine's son is speculation because none of this is explored onscreen. There's frustratingly little about Palpatine's son shown onscreen. Did he reject his father? Did he not have any connection to the force? Did he even know that Palpatine was his father? Maybe he only knew that people were after his daughter and didn't know why. How this whole son aspect of Palpatine was glossed over is very frustrating.

    I sympathize with Unseen because while your explanations may be valid, there's no way of knowing if they are factual. So much about this movie has to be speculated on. Maybe this.... It must have been that.... It's obviously this.... It could be that.....

    If it were mentioned in a quick line that another major character had a child that had never been mentioned before, I suspect everyone would be asking, "Wait, what?!?!?!?"

    "Hi Finn, I'm Sam Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker was my grandfather. Welcome to Pasanna!"

    "Greetings General Hux, I'm Nolo Tarkin, Governor Tarkin's grandson. It's an honor to serve with you."

    "Chewie, it's me, Mara Solo! I'm Han's daughter and I'm here to rescue you!"

    "You're looking for a wayfinder to Exegol? I'm Ben Kenobi III, I know where to find one. Follow me to Kef Bir!"

    If any character actually said any of these things in the last movie of a nine movie series, man, that's just sloppy storytelling. But it happened with Rey and her father.
     
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  9. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    Disney acquired his reincarnation rights during its 2013 acquisition of hell.
     
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  10. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Commander

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    If I could have given you 10x funny I would have. Thanks for that!
     
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  11. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    Why not? Isn't he already doing that? Didn't whoever possessed Plagueis, already take over Palpatine when he was killed by him?
     
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  12. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    When the Sith inhabit another's body this way, they're surrendering control. If Palpatine and the other spirits enter Rey, Rey is still in charge, its still her body. The ritual is more of contingency to save the order in case the it is threatened.

    Each individual Sith seeks physical immortality. They want their body to last forever, so they're always in charge.
     
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  13. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    This is an assumption that I do not agree with.

    The old EU & Cloned SNOKE make me think otherwise.

    Living in the same body forever requires the draining of others to rejuvenate like Emperor Bane did in TLJ, before abandoning it for no reason.
    Since he bailed on using that power, it's out.

    My assumption is: new bodies appeal to old hosts, like Lord Bane who lost his body over a thousand years ago.
    Strike me down. Lose yourself. Cede me the control of your body. THAT kind of thing.

    To me: Disney's Darth bane is Zannah. Disney's Darth Bane is Plagueis. Disney's Darth Bane is Sidious.
    Disney's Darth Bane is all of the Sith.... in the last Apprentice's body.

    This is the only way it can make sense to me.
    Everything else, makes my head spin.


    EDIT: The Anzat - all of this is old in the EU.

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Anzat_(species)

    Some have even been Sith: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Volfe_Karkko
     
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  14. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    With the new Sith lore that TRoS gives us, the Rule of Two has been revealed to be an 'immortality ritual' whereby Sith Masters continue to live on, encouraging and emboldening their own Apprentices to the point that said Apprentices kill them, allowing them to transfer their spirits into the bodies of their Apprentices and remain alive through said Apprentices.
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    In a way, I kinda like that.

    Of course the Sith would make some Darwinian argument for the Rule of Two, only for it to actually be some creepy possession ritual. I get some fans might see it as a retcon, but I think it gels pretty well.
     
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  16. Noen

    Noen Guest

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    Motivation
    My take for his motive staying hidden is rather simple, and traces back to his own words: The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end.

    These words, show that he clearly understands the destabilization guerrilla warfare can create. War without end. This is not a game he wants to get involved in. He knows that all players must be revealed and their whereabouts fully known. Then he will appear and crash them. Also, he has experienced the rebel alliance, which is exactly what he didn't want. Running around sniffing every rebel, and each Jedi sympathizer. This is why he triggered Endor. Draw them out and get this over with (along with luring Luke).

    He was forced into the situation with the rebel alliance, in the sense that when he took control, the old power play structure was there, and resistance one way or another was inevitable. But this time, the situation is different.

    He puts forth the First Order, so this puppet draws out of the forest all the creatures bound to resist. He must know what the opposition is exactly. Also Snoke, is hell bent on finding Luke, who doesn't give a *(&*& at that point but still : The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed... As soon as the pieces are set, he does exactly what one expects of him.

    Hey lads, here I'am. You all come to kill me, which is a copy paste of Endor, sprinkled with the ritual including Rey. He isn't running around from planet to planet finding each rebel, rather they come to him and then he clears the table. Plus and much like Luke, he uses the "I will kill your friends" argument to draw Rey to do want his wants.

    As strange as it may sound it's classical Palp. Get all the opposition in one place, overwhelm them with superior forces, and use the drama to draw a new apprentice to the dark side.

    Survival
    Haven't got the slightest clue, but seeing him on screen was fantastic. I went back for a second viewing just for him. All hail Palp.
     
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  17. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel General

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    Any explanation + a fear of Luke for the timing would have been enough. Nothing at all is unsatisfying because we see him explode in a similar fashion at the end of ep 9 to what he did in ROTJ. So I never felt any closure. His resurrection was ambiguous and so that makes any death of his wholly unsatisfying. In 1983 we see him explode in a blue cloud, yet he returned somehow, in 2019 we see him explode in a blue cloud and then we're supposed to feel satisfied at that?

    I never felt in the original 6 films that Sidious truly got his comeuppance for all the misery he inflicted. I was hoping for a reason why he survived and a satisfying death that closed that thread. Instead we got Sidious, drunk on his own power blinking out of the physical realm temporarily again, ready to return ambiguously for the next trilogy.

    All you needed was after Rey disintegrated him was for Luke, then Leia then Anakin to show up and destroy his spirit accompanied by the force theme and you have a satisfying conclusion. that hits the emotional beats That they left it at such an ambiguous and unsatisfyingly rushed ending will annoy me forever given how easy it would've been to provide a better alternative.
     
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  18. Thretosix

    Thretosix Rebelscum

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    Right, finding another host after the Jedi are taken out with order 66 for Palpatine to find his new host after Anakin became a burnt paraplegic half machine didn't fair well for Granda Palps. His overconfidence in Anakin being his preferred host became part of his weakness. It's why Palpatine was taunting Luke to strike him down in ROTJ so Luke could be his new host.
     
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  19. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    He didn't bail on that power, the film explicitly states Palpatine was only able to revive himself because of the dyad. If all he needed was people to remain alive, he would've merely drained all his followers. The dyad is extremely rare and only appears once in generations, Palpatine would be dead long before the next bond appeared.
    It's not really an assumption when Yoda and reference books state that immortality is the Sith's greatest goal. Sith are all about obtaining power and keeping it, death causes them to lose everything.
    The visual dictionary for TROS reveals that Palpatine began his search for immortality after ROTS. By your reasoning he had no need to do so, as he already knew about the Sith spirit ritual from all those who came before. The ritual is a Rule of Two contingency just like the First Order was for his Galactic Empire. It's awfully risky only having two Sith at one time, if both die without someone to take their mantle the order goes extinct. Palpatine's actual attempt at immortality is what results in his undead corpse.
     
  20. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Palpatine doesn't have to have been aware of the true purpose behind the Rule of Two in order for him to have played his part in it, nor does he have to have been aware that Plagueis and the other Sith Masters were inhabiting his body.
     
    #200 DigificWriter, Jan 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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