How to "save" the sequel trilogy

There were no battles between the time of the Battle f Jakku and the Starkiller Base incident....at least nothing has been brought into canon. This is also reaffirmed by the Military Disarmament Act, which cut the New Republic's military drastically and also laid restrictions on the imperial remnants....as well as the fact that Leia had to create the resistance to stand up against the FO (as the new republic senate didn't believe there was any such danger and continued to demilitarize the new republic- a conclusion they could only reach if there was no obvious armed threat from them).

 

Sure, but like I said, the galaxy's a huge freakin' place. I'd be really surprised if there were no battles at all during that period, even if they didn't involve the First Order or Republic.

I mean, heck, Rey clearly has been in a fight or two during her life, and I imagine the criminal elements of the galaxy also had quite a few struggles with each other in the resulting change of power after the Galactic Civil War.

Point being, nothing weird about a "battle dress".

 

But isn’t that what’s at the core of your skepticism: How can a person fervently believe in something they know to be false? That exact condition must exist somewhere else in order for it to be valid? I’m sorry, I just don’t understand your logic. My fault I’m sure.

There's plenty weird about it to me. I still don’t grasp the context. She has other dresses that aren’t suitable for “battle”? That burlap sack doubles as armor or something? I don’t get it.

“Ah, these pants are far too restrictive. If only I were wearing a dress. Then I could do proper battle.”

 

Shouldn't the question be if the ST can be saved at all? I doubt it sadly.

 

My issue isn't about denial in general being a plot point as much as denial given a specific set of circumstances i.e. in the case of someone being sold into slavery and yet fervently believes that the person who sold them to return for them (something that makes no sense to me). I believe I was quite specific in my last couple of messages when I asked for examples of this being used in other literature/movies.

Anyway, here is a line said by Rey to Unkar Plutt from the TFA novelisation - “I just told you who I am. As to what I have, that would be my freedom and my pride.” This means that Rey herself believes she is a free person and not someone sold into slavery.

Rey makes this statement in front of the other scavengers. Logically, this would be the perfect moment for Unkar declare his ownership over her or reminds her that she is a slave (in case he does not own her himself) to discourage other scavengers from showing similar behavior in future.

Even if we assume Rey is in some state of denial, Unkar at no point refutes her assertion of being free nor does he simply declare the droid belongs to him by virtue of her being his slave.

If you combine that with her saying on many occasions that she was left by mistake, she was waiting for her people etc....it means she truly believes (at least in TFA and associated materials) that she was left behind by her family by mistake. Even when Maz says the people she is waiting for are not coming back, it is still in line with her being left behind, not necessarily sold. Now TLJ brings in this whole slavery angle which I find jarring with what we know till now.

Again, I am happy with her parents being nobodies and her coming from no special lineage...my problem is specifically with inconsistencies between the direction taken in TFA (and materials) and TLJ.

Let us, for a moment, assume you are right and there are other battles, struggles etc.... even under those circumstances, this would mean that Rey's people, family etc were involved in skirmishes as a part of their way of life since their little daughter wears a "battle dress".

Now going back to Jakku itself, in Rey's Survival Guide, TFA Novelisation and High Noon on Jakku, there is definitely an underworld element on Jakku so you could be right about smaller battles. However, this means Rey's people were somehow involved in the Jakku Underworld or at the very least thugs or bounty hunters....definitely not random drunken scavengers.

 

Possible (and I'm totally open to Rey being wrong about her parents being scavengers).

Or maybe they were just guns for hire looking for even more drinking money.

Or maybe their drinking was a side effect of the wearies of war.

Heck, we don't even necessarily have to say that they were Jakku natives, do we?

We have so little information to go off of right now (about Rey's parents and the greater GFFA at that time) that I think there's a lot we can't rule out.

 

If one of her parents gave her reason to believe they would be back some day, that this was only temporary, would that help it to make sense to you?

You certainly were specific. What I’m getting at is: even if I did provide an example, would that really do anything to reverse your opinion? Would having two instances of something you can’t relate to make a difference? You either accept the premise or you don’t.

I’m sorry to say, but the precedence has already been set with that respect. If ever the continuity between movies and novels conflict, the movies win every time. I’m sure someone as observant to Pablo’s tweets as you is already aware of this.

The root of this seems to be you wanting additional connective material released to rationalize these abstruse elements. That you don’t want to have to fill in these holes yourself. I can appreciate that. I just don’t know how necessary it is to the story moving forward.

If we find out Rey’s mother told her they’d come back someday and she was only sold to pay off a debt she was allowed to eventually work off, would that truly progress the story any? Would that change the journey the character had to undergo? In my opinion, no. They’d still be scumbags that abandoned their daughter. That truth and how it weighs with the character is what matters. Not the salient details. But that's just how I see it and my perspective isn't the only one that counts.

 

I don't need you to clarify or help make sense of things for me as I have a pretty clear picture but thanks for asking anyway.

Back on topic, all I asked was a simple example from a movie or book, which you are conveniently evading each time.

Nothing in The Force Awakens movie contradicts this particular line of the force awakens novel.

And if TLJ contradicts it, it just proves my exact point that TLJ contradicts what we know from canon so far ("which canon source takes precedence" being irrelevant when the discussion is about contradictions themselves existing).

Thanks for just reaffirming this.

I think you are digging too deep into what I might want....lol. Please don't work so hard because you are way off.

Again, I said this long back.... you seem to be basing your views on just the movies (or maybe a book or two) and I applaud you on that.....unlike you, I am not here to change your opinion (as you seem so set to change mine),....my opinion is based on what I have read across a variety of canon sources (read: pretty much every canon material released till date) , and I see contradictions across them.

So I suggest we just respect that the other has a different POV and agree to disagree.

 

My goal wasn’t to evade. I absolutely do lack the encyclopedic knowledge necessary to provide you with any. Or, more accurately, I’m far too lazy to invest that level of effort. I’m just trying to understand why that would matter to you. If this is the very first or one thousandth time this scenario has been portrayed, what difference would that make to the premise that she believes in something that she knows to be false?

And here I thought this conversation was about how discovering more about Rey’s backstory would help “save” the sequel trilogy. Seeing as that’s this thread’s topic and all. That ironing out all those perceived inconsistencies would be crucial to EPIX bringing a satisfactory conclusion to this tryptic? That’s where I’ve been coming from. I guess I was mistaken.

My intention here isn’t to change your (or anyone’s) opinion, it’s to have a constructive conversation by better understanding someone else’s perspective and sharing my own. I like to try and see things from other peoples’ point of view and exchange thoughts and ideas. If I don’t understand a person’s logic and conclusions, I’ll ask for follow ups.

I don’t have any interest in converting anyone, I’m just eager to find out how they came to a different conclusion than me. I’m operating under the assumption that other members here are after the same thing. I’m repeatedly finding that not to be the case though and that’s fairly disheartening.

 

@eeprom .... If you do not understand another person's logic and conclusions, maybe you should first introspect a little more into your own thought process instead of assuming that the other person is the one lacking clarity....or appoint yourself the interviewer/interrogator who "asks the follow ups".

So lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

It was the fans that made Snoke a big deal. NOT the movies. He was never the focus. Having him die in the final confrontation of Episode 9 would've been too reminiscent of the Emperor's death. The Emperor himself wasn't a major player until Return of the Jedi. We only understood his significance two decades later when the prequels were made. Appeasing fans with a tacked-on backstory that validates the most prevalent of the Snoke theories is immensely stupid and pointless. If fans are mad because Snoke didn't fulfill their fan theories, it's their own fault for baselessly dreaming them up to begin with. Not the fault of the filmmakers.

 

Hmmmm . . . I don't think a lot of people and Lucasfilm believe the Sequel Trilogy need saving.

 

I don't hate the Sequel trilogy, I don't love it either.

It is my opinion that when the smoke clears, it will rank the least favorite amongst the PT, OT, and ST.

There was so much wasted in creative thought that the whole Sequel trilogy pays the price. I have to give Rian Johnson credit though, he balanced the pendulum in the opposite direction.

And JJ deserves his credit sticking as close to the basics as possible.

I don't think this will be either their fault. However, I do believe they wasted opportunity.

I have said it before.... rather than Wannabe Emperor 2.0, wannabe Vader 2.0, wannabe Empire 2.0 (First Order), they could have setup the trilogy better.

Where they messed up was fictional history, or setting.

For example, I would much rather 7 started more original with SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T SEEN BEFORE, like perhaps the New Republic fighting a rogue seemingly ready to defeat enemy (First Order) and having them cornered, then Kylo showcasing his brutality to defend against the "tyrannical" Republic, at which Kylo beats Rey the first time, and executes the captured captives. Perhaps the Republic was becoming corrupted.... we could have inserted some interesting new themes and subplots. Or SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES. Start it off RIGHT and OrIGINAL rather than this: ****Empire 2.0 **** Starkiller **** New Republic gone.****

This trilogy lacks originality and it all stemmed from the setting and the history they chose. I did like the map idea, before it became unoriginal and null and void in TLJ.

You get the point. The trilogy has overlapping writing, and overlapping plots which is why it will be the least liked trilogy in the SW saga. Plus the unoriginality of it. Plus the lack of support of backstory.

I don't blame RJ or JJ. I blame mismanagement going into the project and lack of artistic vision.

 

Yeah, I think we need to really see what IX is before we can really say how the sequel trilogy makes us feel.

I think there are some great aspects of it- Kylo Ren and Rey have become some of my favorite characters in the series at this point- but also, they've clearly been the focus of the last few movies.

What I think we lack really badly right now is context. I had this discussion with some other people on another thread recently, but apparently by the end of TLJ (only days after the events of TFA, mind you) the First Order is moving in and finishing the conquest of the known galaxy. I really don't get that impression from the movies at all. In fact, a few years ago I remember supplementary material explaining how the First Order was significantly smaller than the Empire, but focused more on quality than quantity. I always just saw the Resistance and FO as two small factions battling in the ashes of the wars that happened before them- apparently that's not the case.

We need a time jump in IX for context, both political and personal (because our characters hardly know each other either, having only met about a week ago in universe).

Ultimately, the overuse of political exposition and long time jumps that caused some problems in the prequel trilogy is the exact problem the sequel trilogy has right now.

 

I absolutely agree that TFA didn’t do much to promise anyone that Snoke would be vital to the overall story. However, you do have to concede, at least a little, that the audience wasn’t totally irrational to expect more, right? I mean the first six movies established that there were very few Sith in the galaxy, by design. Powerful darkside Force users were presented as pretty rare.

Then we get Snoke. Not a Sith, but a powerful darksider just the same. I don’t think it’s crazy for people to have seen that and expected we’d get some sort of explanation to his existence. Where was this guy while the OT was going down? Why is someone this old and potent only showing up now? How is he in charge of this Empire 2.0? How involved was he with the Skywalkers beyond Ben Solo? These questions don’t demand answers, but they’re reasonable ones for the audience to have given what's come before.

I think the difference with the Emperor is precedence. In 1980, we knew very little about the larger galaxy far far away. The only darksider we had was Vader. Revealing there was another, more powerful one, in charge of this whole villainous construct, was a big deal. We didn’t know his backstory, but we didn’t know much of anything else about this history either. He must have come from wherever his Empire came from then. That was just as mysterious. The audience was curious, but had nothing to compare it to, so the expectation didn’t exist in the way it does now.

The situation for these sequels isn’t quite the same. We have a history now. We have a frame of reference and someone like Snoke doesn’t exactly fit in with what we know. Basically, I don’t think it’s entirely fair to fault the fan base for anticipating they’d receive additional details that would put his character into better perspective. Being substantially upset that those expectations weren’t met? Well, that’s something else.

 

Let's concede the ridiculous premise of the thread, despite the fact Star Wars is bigger than ever and Disney is laughing all the way to the bank. The internet distorts everything and one of the "fun" lies its peddling, is somehow TLJ was a disaster despite being the biggest grossing film of 2017.

Forget Snoke is my first piece of advice. And for the love all, let's stop peddling Snoke conspiracies. He wasn't that great a villain and to boot, Kylo Ren has become infinitely more interesting now. Has anyone noticed that Kylo wins the film? He dupes Rey into murdering the most powerful man in the galaxy, then uses her to cover his own crime and now pretty much runs the galaxy entire. Cool. The death of Snoke is one of the key items in TLJ that made it interesting.

Keep Rey in the spotlight. She is a gem of a character and a key reason the sequel trilogies are a success.

End Episode IX with a fractured galaxy and the Force "awoken" so that force gifts are manifesting all over a galaxy, one that can build pocket empires and republics loosely strung together in a galaxy that now permits story telling of all types of style and flavor. All the while maintaining a cohesive "world" that ties them all together.

Cross-pollinate characters and themes throughout the new trilogies, Netflix series etc, so Star Wars feels bigger and richer than ever.

And I'll add I'm quite confident this is what we'll get.

 

Yeah, that's kind of where I stand. Snoke in TFA was mysterious. He was projected like a hologram, we knew almost nothing about him, and we never actually see him in the flesh. TFA never went out of its way to promise much about him, but there are definitely implications.

Meanwhile, Snoke in TLJ is... different. He's very in your face, very powerful, weirdly tall- but a lot of the mysterious tone with him is gone. We still don't know anything about him, but while TFA made implications that TLJ couldn't cash, The Last Jedi also didn't really ever bank on those implications anyway. If not for the mysterious tone of Snoke in the first film, we may not even be having this discussion.

What it comes down to is, I think JJ and RJ had very different ideas of what this character should be and how he should be portrayed. Again, hard to say whose is better, but when they're competing against each other like this, you get this weird, in-congruent feel.

That being said, I think JJ's involvement in EpIX is a point in the corner of the "We're not done with Snoke" crowd, even if they still just have a fool's hope.

 

I haven't read other replies on this thread, but I am stealing from others I've had discussions with on other threads.

Explain that the Force is like a tide, and right now it's high tide, so those who can manipulate the force can do it at greater degrees (possibly even degress of magnitude). Explains Rey, Snoke's power (possibly rebirth), Luke's projection and possibly even a new weapon (the reason why the KoR were absent in TLJ) that manipulates the Force (this weapon is why the force is in high tide). A DS that isn't a rehash.

Give Kylo and the KoR power over this weapon. Make them attack both the FO and Resistance, forcing Hux and Phasma (who somehow survives) to join with the resistance. I haven't thought of it much beyond this, but I think it would solve some many issues and fears of what is coming next (so far we've had a bigger DS and a bigger SSD... please not another bigger DS).

Rey gets an explanation that is integral to the story line. She loses nothing, the story only gains.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 27, 2018 ---

I think the direct timeline theory due to TFA ending is a misconception. Nothing stopped RJ from having a short meet, then adding weeks, months, years directly afterward. It just wasn't his vision, but it certainly wasn't necessary either.

 

Hype up, it's Star Wars!

Weren't the praetorians sort of mechanized KOR?
And agreed. Why would anyone want to see any more of Hux? I don't understand why people idolize his charachter. The guy is a worse weasel than Wormtongue. There isn't a single trait in his charachter that we saw so far that is positive? Not in TFA and certainly not in TLJ. Am I missing something? Everytime he is on screen we just get reminded of the horrific lengths of uglyness of humans. He is a genocidal maniac who gets off from wiping off entire worlds. And mind that he doesn't do it for ideological reasons but to gain personal favors and approval from SLS. What competence he actually has to occupy the position he holds (FO's Armies commander) other than his lack of selfesteem based sociopathy? The last jedi goes very far to depict him as unimportant (Snoke's public treatment of him at the bridge), incompetent (not much of a strategist if he loses a dreadnaught to a basically single fighter), not very intelligent (to fall for 'still holding for General Hugs' tooling), coward (reaching for his gun to kill kylo but only while he is unconscious), redundant (accentuated by reducing him to "a repeater" of supreme leader kylo's orders), and let us not forget invertibrate weakling (the old SL is dead long live the new SL) and of course a nazi (all of the above).
Perhaps I'm just blind somehow, to not see his good qualities.
*shrugs*

Yes. He is not abandoning Ben again to go hide on a murky island. I am pretty sure Luke will forever be a part of SW in his force ghost form, like Yoda is now, 34 years after ot.

Luke was always sort of separate from Han and Leia, because of his force abilities?

I think we should see more of Snoke. If not actively then to at least demistify him a bit...or explain why does he hate the Jedi so if the jedi are a failure?

I think we will have many more sw movies and sw trilogies.

What kind of connection do Anakin and Obi have with Rey? They never met.
The more obvious connection is to Ben.

We have seen it twice now. And it was interesting both times. Im curious if they can make it interesting again in 9.

Why?

Phasma is gone. Really gone. Not like Ben, not really gone. But really really gone. Dead. LOL

The Jedi failed. Why build them again? Or better, how do you propose they should be rebuilt in order to avoid past failures?

WHY??

 

The ST doesn't need to be saved – it's not even brought to completion.