I Can't Believe I'm Asking This, But is Rey a "Mary Sue"?

@eeprom @Boss Vos @FN-3263827

 

I never claimed he did. I merely stated that his goal was not to make a Science Fiction film as you asserted. It was to make Space Fantasy – a modern fairy tale. George is no longer writing these bedtime stories. These new fairy tales are now being made by the company that made its fortune off a different kind of fantasy. If you think they aren’t bringing in the lessons they’ve learned in marketing those properties to young girls via strong female protagonists, then you’re sorely mistaken.

Rey, a parentless dreamer with a mysterious past, in the care of a tyrant, has her monotonous life turned upside down when a dashing stranger whisks her away on an adventure where she discovers her inner strength and greater purpose in life. She even has a cute cartoonish sidekick. No. You’re right. That doesn’t sound like a Disney princess at all. What was I thinking?

 

LarsSkywalker,
"Once upon a time" has been used in children's stories for ages, it's not exclusive to a certain type of fairytales involving princesses. Besides, nobody said Star Wars isn't a fairytale in space. But to claim that George Lucas was inspired by Cinderella and Snow White when he wrote Star Wars is wrong.

 

Then you shouldn't have made those comparisons in the first place. But yes, you are most definitely stretching things. Your description of Rey can be used to describe Anakin and Luke as well.

 

Seconded.

 

It's not, since its a very vague number that doesn't break down the audience by family members, friends, husbands, wifes, sons and daughters. Which is exactly why statistics are usually misleading unless you provide all the necessary information.

Some scientists even claim that 85 % of all statistics are misleading:
http://scienceblogs.com/worldsciencefestival/2010/08/05/85-of-statistics-are-false-or/

 

Nobody?

No one made that claim. You said Science Fiction has a long history of prominent female characters. I countered that fairy tales have an even longer one and named some. That’s all.

 

Does anyone realize how funny your last paragraph is

 

You do love your stretches. I said it's a space fairytale, and not just a fairytale.

And even though Star Wars is like a fairytale in space, it was still inspired by mythological history, Flash Gordon and Japanese war movies and not the Brothers Grimm or something like that.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2017 ---

And that's why you need to read the actual article, and be provided with ALL the necessary information before jumping to conclusions. By comparison, the source from @FN-3263827 is just one sentence.

 

I didn’t make any claims to where Lucas pulled inspiration from to write his fantasy. It’s irrelevant. That it IS fantasy is the point. And the fantasy genre has a very long tradition of female heroes. Most of which now belong to Disney just as Star Wars does.

If ‘A’ leads to ‘B’ and ‘B’ leads to ‘C’, then hopefully you can solve the rest.

 

Star Wars was only ever meant to be a fairytale SET in space.



"Typically in Fairly Tales"
"Common in Fairy Tales"

The phrase ("il était une fois") was popularised by the French author Charlesharles Perrault who wrote, guess what, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Little Red Riding Hood- all popular FAIRY TALES.

Try again.



Even George Lucas disagrees with you.



So does JJ Abrams

Look, I know. It's hard to accept that your favourite franchise may be meant for people who don't look/sound/think like you but denying it helps not at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 21, 2017 ---

Glad you mentioned history.

The first novel to be considered as science fiction was Frankenstein which was written by? A woman.
And even before that, Margaret Cavendish wrote The Blazing World—a satirical utopian vision—in 1666.

But you're right. Women and science fiction "historically" don't mesh.

Also, if you've read science fiction from the 70's and 80's there's a high chance that they were written by a woman. Ursula K. Le Guin, for example, was huge in the field. Anne McCafrey, Vonda MacIntyre. Several women wrote under male pseudonyms.

Because it's an open secret in the publishing world that men don't pick up books written by female names. Why do you think so many women write under their initials? J.K Rowling, for example.

What about TV shows (which have been much kinder to science fiction than movies have been "historically")

Star Trek had and still has a sizable female fanbase. My own mother, who could only just about read and write in English used to stay up and watch re-runs of the show. Women used to create, produce and circulate fanzines with fan works and art. They wrote letters to the studios when Star Trek got canceled.

What about Manga? Surely science fiction manga is solely a male populated field.

Wrong. One of the biggest and best selling science fiction manga series was Fullmetal Alchemist. Created by a woman. Hiromu Arakawa.



Sure, science fiction was largely a male-dominated field. But don't mistake the lack of female voices for a lack of interest. Women were often chided for expressing interest in "masculine" fandoms and had to jump through hoops to be taken seriously. I am so utterly lucky that women before me fought for their rights to be heard in the same space as men. It's because of them that I can even disagree with you without being outright laughed at.

And that I do. Disagree with you. Vehemently.

 

Mary Sues never cry, are never presented as unsure about their past and future, never openly aknowledge men's help and certainly never ask men "I need someone to show me my place in all this".

There you go. Rey cannot be a Mary Sue.

 

How can they disagree with me when I didn't say against them? I didn't deny that Star Wars is a fairytale in space.

Additionally, I would highly appreciate if you didn't turn this into another gender war and trying to make it seem as if I said that no women are interested in sci-fi at all (which I didn't). I'm familiar with the writers you mentioned, The Left of Darkness is actually one of the first sci-fi books I read when I was younger.

That is something we can agree on, but it was never something I denied either.

 

Maybe I’m misremembering the thread. My recollection was that the point you were making was that young girls are typically not interested in Science Fiction and Star Wars is ‘perceived’ as being Science Fiction. So a character like Rey won't make a difference. My point was that Disney’s job now is to shift that perception. To sell it instead as something it actually is: a fairy tale.

Do that and they’ll unlock a very lucrative segment of consumers that’s previously eluted this brand. IMO, Rey is the first step to that end. Makes sense to me anyway.

 

"Fake news"

 

I'm not trying to turn anything into anything. I'm contributing to a discussion that was already dealing with the "gender war" as you call it. Personally, I'd call it disparity in representation but sure, let's use inflammatory terms.

You made it about gender issues, my friend. People were mentioning that having female characters brought in female fans, especially younger ones and you had to make a blanket statement about how "girls are not as interested in sci-fi as boys"

I was replying to this specific point you brought up

when in fact he did and LucasFilm has continued that tradition with JJ Abrams specifically pointing out how much like Cinderella the Takodana scene is.

Sure. You're right. But plenty of girls who weren't fans up until TFA are now ardent fans of Star Wars. What would say about them, I wonder. Rey has been consistently one of the most common Halloween costumes for women and girls since 2015. There's been an explosion in female participation in SW fan forums, tumblr, reddit etc. Art and other fanworks made by women are being used by LucasFilm to promote their movies.

 

I've posted similar things before in other threads but here we go:



this is from MPAA. It is not skewed. It is not being twisted.
The current population is trending female as are moviegoers in general.
Therefore, making your movie more accessible, but not exclusive to, women (looking at you Ghostbusters 2016) is just smart business and partially why the DCEU is struggling outside of Wonder Woman. (Zack Snyder's uber masculine approach is a different thread)



Here we see that actual movie going is DOWN across the board for men and women. The natural response to this is to make movies more accessible to more people (increased diversity). Female leads, POC having more lead roles. With the population skewing female, it makes sense to over-correct towards women in declining ticket sales.



Attendance was UP for African Americans and Asian/Other ethnicity while down for Caucasians and Hispanics. So adding leads of these other ethnicity...Bhodi, Saw, Chirrut, Baze, Finn, Rose....is done with these specific rising categories in mind.

This is how a business, that relies solely on the individuals buying tickets works. It's incredibly reactionary.
If there is a sharp drop in male ticket sales for The Last Jedi, the next set of Star Wars films will feature a male lead...
Well would you look at that.

 

I'm saving this answer for the future because I feel like I'm going to be having this same argument again and again until the end of time.

You may try but you cannot deny the truth that is bar graphs and numbers.