I Re-Watched The Empire Strikes Back for the first time after seeing The Last Jedi and...

No, you are putting words in my mouth as I implied no such thing. Read what I write and don't impose your own biased garbage on me...

 

When you jump into a conversation, it's best to know what the conversation is about.
Or, don't jump in.

 

Boy you are just so full of yourself to presume to know so much... It must be hard for you living with the rest of us mere mortals... or in other words..

MOD EDIT: INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT

I know what the thread is about, I read it. I don't need to comment on every aspect of the thread in order to jump in. You said someone was reaching with saying Yoda's humor served a purpose... I disagreed with you and backed up my opinion...how much more do I need to understand other than that? I never said the humor in TFA or TLJ served a purpose or not. I never stated whether I liked it or not. I simply disagreed with you on your "reaching" aspect of Yoda in ESB..

 

The humor in TLJ might be the single biggest weakness in the film to me. I found almost none of the ‘jokes’ to be funny or even clever - to me way too many things came across as just dumb. The phone call with Poe/Hux, Finn wandering around in the leaking suit, the ironing boards, the coins being stuffed in BB-8 to name a few were all just really dumb. I didn’t laugh..I felt sorry that Rian thought these things were funny. I felt the same way with all of these things as I did every time Jar Jar did something “funny”in the prequels - just cringeworthy stuff.

In contrast in the ESB things like Han stealing 3POs thoughts on fixing the Falcon or Lando asking if Han was having trouble with his droid when 3PO was in a box...those were funny to me.

But to each their own. There is no right or wrong - it’s great many people found some of these parts to be funny in TLJ, unfortunately the humor just didn’t land with me.

 

No, you still have no clue what you are talking about. trace the conversation before acting so smug and "smart"

He was implying that the humor had no place in the ST yet the humor from Yoda served a purpose.
He is reaching to imply that Yoda's served a purpose but the other movies humor doesn't.

Your interjection was meaningless if you didn't get that. My argument was never Yoda's humor didn't have a purpose.

 

I think George has received his fair share of bemoaning for AotC.

 

The worst humor part for me in TLJ was the Hux/Poe exchange. With the Luke lightsaber toss second. Both are very early in the film and it was hard to get back into it after those. What I hated most about Hux/Poe was that it pretty much destroyed any potential for Hux to be taken seriously. Villains in the OT weren't treated this way and that gave you a sense of fear when your heroes faced them. This in a movie that desperately needs a villain after both Snoke and Phasma get killed off (or are they?).

Had TLJ not opened up with those two "jokes" I think my experience watching TLJ could have been substantially better. As people say though, humor is subjective and those gags were obviously aimed at the kiddos.

 

Oh, the humor wasn't greatly understood at the time either.

"It is violent. It is conventional. It is not without humour of the cosy Enid Blyton kind." - Eric Shorter, The Daily Telegraph
(Enid Blyton was a children's book author. This isn't a compliment; it's a backhanded insult.)

"It’s not as fresh and funny and surprising and witty, but it is nice and inoffensive and, in a way that no one associated with it need be ashamed of, it’s also silly. Attending to it is a lot like reading the middle of a comic book. It is amusing in fitful patches but you’re likely to find more beauty, suspense, discipline, craft and art when watching a New York harbor pilot bring the Queen Elizabeth 2 into her Hudson River berth, which is what The Empire Strikes Back most reminds me of." - Vincent Canby, New York Times​

Now, the reason that you didn't probably notice the humor, and why a lot of folks didn't notice the humor (or did, and thought it was terrible) was because of this feud between Lucas and Kershner.

"Kershner said he would never work with Lucas again after his EMPIRE experience, and I think Lucas felt the same way. He felt Kershner went too emotional in EMPIRE, and put too much emphasis on Vader's struggle, and not enough on Luke's. It just wasn't the movie he would have made." - Dale Pollock​

So ESB's humor comes out somewhat confused. Somewhere between a comic-book-ish cheese humor of ANH and Wiener Schmäh (matter-of-fact, sarcasm said tongue-in-cheek and usually gaining awareness of the joke after a few moments for it to sink in).


This actually pretty much matches a lot of Rian's style of humor in TLJ.
Rian's humor is basically along the same lines, but anytime you see something that's a cheese-ball moment, if you look at it again, what you'll find is an irreverent sarcasm. It's pretty constant, even when there's not a joke overtly stated, there's a joke taking place in TLJ - not exactly a joke intended to laugh at, but a joke that's jabbing at the audience. Rian likes to be aggressive and challenge fans, so he tends to do that wherever possible.

I said it elsewhere, but I still think it's worth noting: wherever you find a humorous moment in Rian Johnson films, look again because he tends to wrap up pointed philosophy in humor. Conversely, wherever you find philosophy, look again because he tends to like to undercut his philosophical points with something that invalidates the value of the point - making a joke out of it.

An example of the first is the lightsaber chuck.
Everyone takes a look at it as a joke, but its value is far more than a joke. Its value beyond a humorous (arguable) moment is the philosophical symbolism of it.
Luke basically just told Rey, and the audience, that everything they thought mattered and was of value wasn't going to be regarded as of value at all - what you imagine as of worth isn't what is regarded as being of worth.

Conversely, the deep moment of philosophical existentialism that is Rey in the cave contains within it a humor Sartre would note.
She's alone, and she's deeply afraid of this, and yet she's not alone because there's an endless array of herself to keep herself company.
You wanted to be of someone; well, here. You are of yourself - look at all of you. You aren't even all of the versions of you. You are one of them, but not all of them, but they are all here for you...forever and ever and ever and ever and ever - you can't escape yourself.
This is akin to "Hell is other people" joke of Sartre, or the old "Wish fulfillment" joke that results in the adage, careful what you wish for. Where whatever you want will come true, but just in the way that you really don't want, but does technically fulfill your wish.
So, Rey; you're not alone. You have all of you throughout time. Enjoy existential dread!


There's lots more packed in this thing, and some will enjoy it, others won't.
I can't argue that it's funny or not because that's not possible.
I can sit through Seinfeld shows completely bored and that's supposed to be really funny.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

No, I said that, in my experience of Star Wars, humour that does not serve character development is less successful. There is much more of this humour in TLJ and that’s why it feels redundant. The humour in ESB might have been goofy at times but, in general, it was relevant. In TFA the humour is spot on.

I’m trying to explain, to myself mainly, why a lot of the humour in TLJ doesn’t work.

 

First, i don't get why people ever called ESB "dark" : to me, it was always a fun and lighthearted movie (with a downer ending).

Now, the difference between ESB and TLJ isn't the amount of humor, but the type of humor.

As Irvin Kershner said it : "I needed humor in the picture, and yet i couldn't have gags". So, most of the humor came from the banter between characters. Also, the timing and placement of those jokes fit the tone of their scenes.
The result feels fluid and organic, the humor "flows" naturally with the movie. (And we did see that style a lot in TFA too : i certainly don't think this type of humor is dead or "belong to another era").


TLJ use a very different type of humor :
_ there are several gags and slapstick moments (butt-naked Finn leaking, milking Sea creature, Porgs ...).
_ there's an over-use / inapropriate use of "bathos" (often labelled "Marvel humor") : the scene starts overly serious, then a joke drops out of nowhere, then we're back to serious again.
(ex : "prank call", "Rey from Jakku", "saber toss").

The result feels unharmonious and disjointed,. The tone is all over the place, as it shifts too much, too often and too fast.
This creates a disconnect, and makes it harder for us to stay invested in the movie.

Also worth noting, the Slow Chase plot rely heavily on tension and its "cabin fever" ambiance (especially for Poe) : so, it's hardly compatible with any kind of humor.
This only increase the disconnect.

Add to that some "meta" humor ("laserswords"), and we're now completely out of the movie.

I also agree with @Ammianus Marcellinus : we're seeing a lot more of "bully humor" : the movie mocks its characters, instead of trying to make us laugh with them.
I find that last bit very distasteful.

 

I don't know if others get it and hate it, or don't get it, but basically Rian Johnson basically took anything that was fan-fare Star Wars and cranked it up to ridiculous, and then poked holes in it, ground his foot on it, picked it up all tattered in pieces, and then said that this was precious.

The slow chase was basically a tongue-in-cheek joke, same with the prank call.
It's basically Rian taking a trope of Star Wars and then dialing it up to 11 to point out the absurdity of it, then when that's done and fully taken irreverently, stabbing a meaningful point on its heels.

You walk in, Rian asks what your favorite drink is.
You tell him.
He asks if you'd like him to pour you one, and you agree.
Rian sets the cup on the table, fills it up, and right when you grab for the cup, he picks it up, looks at you and pours it on the floor right in front of you, laughing, and then quite seriously slams the cup on the table and says, "Life is poured out emptiness", and walks away leaving the still full carafe on the table next to the empty cup.

Even characters aren't free from Rian jabbing at their rediculousness via Rian's jokes.
Chewie has a moment of empathy over eating a Porg; joke! (some say stupid joke)

On the other hand, Rian's also poking a hole in the OT's character's treatment of Chewie as a one-dimensional walking carpet who only thinks with his stomach, but is juxtaposed as having compassion for our characters beyond this off-hand carpet with hunger issues treatment.

So he has Chewie do something you wouldn't normally think of Chewie doing; having emotional guilt over eating his food.
So it's a joke, but also Rian is trying to force it out that Chewie is more than just a dog-like chum who gets yelled at and belittled by everyone as if he has the IQ of Forest Gump.

This is where the "laser sword" comes in.
And this isn't meta because he says Laser Sword. It's meta because Rian's talking to the audience yet again.
Luke might as well have been talking to the audience during this line and basically telling them that if you thought Luke was this grand big hero that was going to be this great big hero of your childhood dreams that just cleans house like Superman...nope!
Instead he has Luke make fun of this idea of Luke.
That part is meta.
And it's double-sided, as is Rian's common style here. Yes, there's a joke in the sarcasm of Luke, but then he's ripping apart Luke as well and pointing out the obsurdness of Luke in the OT itself (one I've ranted about many, many times).
Luke doesn't do much in the OT that is drop-jaw super-jedi awesome.
He's barely a hero. He has four sword fights and 3 out of four of them fail, and one of them wasn't even a fight - it was just practicing deflecting blaster fire (which...we could call a draw, he lost and won here).

In ANH, Luke trains to use a lightsaber and then doesn't end up using it at all and instead fires a torpedo.
In ESB, Luke uses a lightsaber and loses his hand.
In ROTJ, Luke uses a lightsaber and finally saves the day with his swashbuckling...and thank goodness, because then when he gets to the next sword fight, he once again loses, then wins, then chooses to stop.

This isn't to say these are bad things to happen - they fit the story perfectly the way they happen, but this grand bad-ass with a lightsaber motif who just waltzes in and cleans up the bad guys just isn't in the films. He was in our imagination as kids with action figures, but not in the films.
In the films he didn't save the day as some Herculean champion. He saved the day by being human and connecting with his Dad...not swinging a sword around.

I said before that he isn't being meta by calling it a laser sword, and the reason it isn't meta is that Anakin called it a laser sword when he was a kid.
Anakin: "I saw your laser sword. Only Jedi carry that kind of weapon."

Luke is belittling Rey in using that term; using a child's term for a lightsaber.
He's implying that Rey is a foolish child who thinks that Luke, or the Jedi, is (are) there to be called upon to come save the day in grand heroic fashion like childhood stories.

Both Rey and the audience are being told at the same moment to let go of childish expectations for grand heroic battles, because that's not what saves the day.

If you laugh at a TLJ joke, the aim should be that you laugh like this:


And then, hopefully after you reflect on the joke inside the insult that's inside the joke for a moment


Because the mess that's reality is absurd, and in that absurdity, charmingly pleasing sadness.



Now...thing is...that's going to really not work out well when it doesn't work for someone.
Even if Rian sat down and explained the whole thing out, the response from the recipient would just be along the lines of:



All I can say is....that's Rian Johnson for you.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

this is all because of the opening of the film.

Hux is made to look a complete fool in the opening scenes of TLJ.. the audience are waiting to see what bad thing will happen to him next. the audience giggling at something that isn't really supposed to be funny (imo) is a result of that.

it's a comparison i'm not particularly happy with... but it's a tad....Wile E. Coyote or Dick Dastardly if you get my drift.


We saw that he was beginning to get rather peed off with it all towards the end of TLJ.. i hope that he is nasty, evil and all guns blazing at the start of ep9.

 

After 7x watching of TLJ by now in my case, only instance of bad humor left for me is in the initial scene between Poe and Hux.

Its unfortunate because this is opening scene in which Hux has been made imbecile , and this first perception of bad humor left many of us(including me) with "scope"of bad humor afterwards in the film, despite other humor scenes are barable and some of them are actually good.

 

Having seen Empire a zillion times in my life since 1980, the humor is much different then today's blockbusters (I'm not just singling out SW as this is prevailent in most modern day movies). Today's blockbuster humor is more shoe-horned in because they feel they need to break up the drama/tension (Rian Johnson alluded to this in many interviews). That is why, IMO, todays Blockbuster humor doesn't work as well because it doesn't flow with the narrative. The jokes in ESB (mostly from Han and Leia) are natural because it is their personality, so it doesn't stick out during the movie.

For example, there is a lot of subtle humor in ESB and only works because of the chemistry between Ford and Fisher. When Han is trying to get the Falcon going off Hoth, Leia says, "Would you like it if I got out and pushed?" And Han says, ".....it might!" It is very funny, but subtle line yet it is pure Han and Leia bickering as she is sarcastic as has no trust in Han, where he has his pride and will never admit that his Falcon may not get them out of this situation. As later he says ONLY to himself, "I don't know how we're going to get out of this!"

Now contrast that with TLJ humor and most of it is in your face, especially with the Poe/Hux conversation. Some people think it's funny and some think it's not funny at all, and the problem is because RJ wanted to have humor so he didn't write it in the script naturally. He probably said, this would be a good place to break up the tension at the beginning and have some humor.

I could go on and on with the humor in ESB, but most if it pretty subtle and only works because it is not out of place. When Han says, "Shut him up or shut him down!" it works because he has no respect for C3PO, so he is not really trying to be funny, he is sick of C3PO! But it's funny to us because poor C3PO is just trying to help, but Han is an A-type personality who doesn't want anyone's help except from Chewy.

 

i agree. in Hux's defense, he takes every beating and keeps going. even in the end he's not cowed by Ren on Crait: still calling him out on his stupidity.
unfortunately though, i think you're right ~ the initial silliness with Poe sets a tone that's hard to shake. : o p

 

Yes, that really makes sense.

I'm pretty supportive of the idea that the spinoff films each try to do something unique with Star Wars- Rogue One was a war movie, Solo is looking to be a space western... if we get an Obi Wan film, I hope it also puts its own spin on the character, giving us yet another subgenre new to Star Wars.

I think the trilogies have a challenge in that they need to feel not only like part of the Star Wars universe, but also like a single cohesive unit. So, while Solo and Rogue One's tones can clash with one another (and I expect they will), TFA and TLJ need to feel more similar, despite their differences. Again, it's a fine line to walk. Personally, I'd say TLJ feels just at home in the universe TFA established, but I can understand where some people are coming from.

 

I think someone else already addressed the hot potato portion of ESB so I won't post a video or image for it.

All I'll say is that not all of ESB is subtle in its humor.

 

This is absolutely something that truly baffles me that so many people didn’t (or didn’t want to) get. Luke tossing the saber wasn’t just for the yucks. There was a comedic element to it, sure. But there was also:

• A meta aspect there meant for the audience – Leave your preconceived notions at the door. Just because you thought something was important doesn’t mean it will be.
• A character and thematic component being established – Beware meeting your heroes. They’re just people and people will disappoint you.
• An immediate story necessity – Luke needed to make an exaggerated and offensive show because he wanted this ‘intruder’ gone. It was entirely consistent with the character.

It’s a layered and ‘sophisticated’ sequence, that’s humorous, but also intended to communicate a range of topics to the audience. I thought it was rather brilliant visual storytelling. But that’s only an opinion.

 

That's also the point of the Thala-Siren scene and the whole post-first meeting montage when Luke's daily routine is shown. He wants Rey to be put off by Ahch-to and what it takes to live there.