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I staunchly defended Rey after TFA, but have

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by kuatorises, May 30, 2018.

  1. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    changed my stance a bit. The popular argument after The Force Awakens was to call her Mary Sue. She might have been a little bit, but no more than Luke; you blow up the Death Star the first time he flew a real ship or kid Anakin accidentally blowing up the Trade Federation ship (cringe). My point, they are both pretty typical fantasy heroes/protagonists and she was not some kind of major violation.

    But her feats in the second movie were just ridiculous. They have made her pretty much flawless. Luke struggled to move a few rocks in The Empire Strikes Back and he had already been studying and/or training for a little while. She picked up a light saber for the first time at the end of the previous movie, which was practically a day or two before the events of this movie, and she moved boulders. I hope they do something to correct this.
     
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  2. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    All you need to know is that Rey and Luke had very different perspectives on the Force. Yoda tells you exactly what in ESB.


    [Luke:] I can’t believe it. [Yoda:] That is why you fail.
     
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  3. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel Official

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    I felt the same way. She paralleled Luke as "that talented hero" and it worked well. I was very interested in her in TFA and liked her set-up. TFA offered a lot of mystery and some neat intimate moments. I loved her scavenging lifestyle and thought it was great to see lots of little Reys for Halloween!

    ...but...I just don't like her treatment in TLJ. She deserves better writing. I guessed there was some neat twist in WHY she was so good at everything and took to the Force so quickly. I was really looking forward to learning about her fears, flaws, and seeing her struggle like Luke did ESB and overcome the odds. But there are no odds for her. I would always guess she would win/triumph in every scene and she did. I think she learned everything too fast and I can't think of anything she doesn't instantly succeed at. I still like the character and have hopes for her in the next installment. Maybe JJ can bring some more depth as she has so much potential!


    As a female fan, it was initially exciting to have a girl as the lead hero. To be honest, I can't relate to her at all. I find I can relate better to Luke.
     
    #3 HothLeia, May 30, 2018
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah...

    That's the big takeaway from ESB. Size matters not.

    The idea that the Force is like a more traditional muscle is what the old Republic believed. Yoda (and apparently Snoke) saw it eventually as a more spiritual thing.
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Luke struggled externally with the force.
    Rey was able to handle the force externally.

    Luke knew where he belonged and what his place was.
    Rey has no idea where she belongs or what her place is.

    They have different struggles and tribulations.
    Rey's are almost all inward.

    I'm sorry you seemingly wanted a retelling of the OT and TLJ swerved that. But she most definitely showed her flaws and fears.
    They weren't the same as Luke's but they're there.
     
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  6. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel Official

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    I didn't mean it in terms of wanting a rehash of ESB. I mean that I liked how Luke got his behind handed to him , his training was actual training that he struggled with, and he made bad choices with consequences. I would not want to same events to unfold with Rey, but I like the depth, conflict, and consequences we saw for Luke's character.

    Rey's inward struggles were there but I wish the execution was better. I still think she learns too fast, overcomes with too much ease, doesn't show any negative traits (Luke was whiny, reluctant, and impulsive to balance his heroic qualities). And to top it off there was no reason for a lot of the gifts and abilities she possessed in TFA.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    You get those same things.
    It's not about the same events but the same beats. If she goes to Luke and struggles it'd be too similar to ESB. We see this in the common complaints of TFA. The whole plot of the movie is different but people claim it's a ripoff because it just has similar beats. Rey makes plenty of bad decisions. Her bad decisions ultimately lead to Han's death in TFA. All she had to do was not run away when Maz told her not to. But she chose to run.


    She's rash. Impatient. She's gullible. She's naive. She has plenty of flaws.

    There was reason. You just didn't like it. So not that doesn't top it off.
    Maybe you don't relate to Rey because you're not a little kid according to your profile.
     
  8. HothLeia

    HothLeia Rebel Official

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    Some good points but the handling of the character just didn't work for me in TLJ. She did make that bad decision in TFA, which presented her character in a better way. It's not that I dislike the character, I just don't like what happened with her in TLJ. Usually when she is impatient or impulsive it is presented as a strength in some way instead of a flaw. TFA had a good set-up for her. Her decision to run lead to Han's fate, but you don't see her struggle with this.

    The age factor doesnt determine relating to her. I relate to characters of different ages in SW. Her treatment in TLJ just didnt work for me, which was a shame because I liked what was going on with her in TFA.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Because it's not presented as guilt like that. She blames Kylo solely. It's a bad trait to have, to be unwilling or unable to see your own mistakes and failings as Luke said. Any time Kylo talks about killing Han you have that struggle because of how the narrative presents it.
     
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  10. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    This is lazy even for a copout. As HothLeia mentions, the character succeeds at everything she does throughout this movie. She almost does in The Forces Awakens as well, but it's not as unbelievable as it is in this movie. She's perfect and TLA. She never loses or even struggles – and if that alone isn't bad enough, she does things that even Luke couldn't do with even less training than he had. At least in TFA she is captured and struggles greatly against Kylo. Look at this clip:



    there is tension and emotion here. You can see the struggles on her face. This is why I liked the character in the first movie. Daisy really played her wonderfully. But there’s nothing to latch onto in TLA because the character has already mastered everything and never struggles.
     
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  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Rey fails spectacularly at her one single focused objective in TLJ.
    but people still complain that she's "perfect".

    i still don't really get why. because she lifts some rocks?
     
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  12. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Get out of here with this ridiculousness. Han and Chewie were there to blow up the shield generator. They were going there whether she was there or not. Thing was the only one whose sole motivation was finding her.

    As for the rest of your post, chill with your rabid fanboy act. You don't need to be a Richard because other posters see the flaws and you choose to adamantly ignore and defend them.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Both objectives, really. Getting trained, and bringing Luke back (though, admittedly bringing Luke back was the main objective).

    Of course, Luke does come back in a way, but that's far more Yoda's doing than Rey's. And, of course, in the end it ends in Luke's death.

    And yeah, Rey can lift some rocks. Whoop de doo. As has been discussed before, the prequels do not understand mystical nature of the Force. That being said, she still never finished her training with Luke, who certainly still had things to teach her.

    So yeah, anyone who's mad that she does things "perfectly" apparently didn't even watch the film.
     
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  14. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Honestly people dont pay attention to Rey that much. She only bested Kylo because he was severely wounded. JJ Abrams painstaking setup throughout TFA how powerful Chewie bowcaster was. Multiple times he had it hit targets or near targets and have Stormtroopers and others literally blown back like 10 feet or so. It was like getting shot with a grenade. So Kylo gets shot with the bowcaster and survives but is bleeding out. He walks all the way to the woods and finds Rey and Finn. They show a puddle of blood right by his feet. The bleeding didnt just start. He bled all the way to where they fight. Rey then struggles throughout the fight and not until she just gives herself to the Force does she win the fight. Notice she gives herself to the Force. She learns in TFA and TLJ she is a tool of the Force not the other way around.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 31, 2018, Original Post Date: May 31, 2018 ---
    I also dont understand why people believe that Rey beat Kylo in TLJ. They fought together and then both try to get the lightsaber and it explodes. The only way she beat Kylo is she came to first. Really that is winning the battle?
     
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  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Her being captured is ultimately what leads them on the path to blow up the shield generators.
    If she isn't captured. Finn likely bolts. He stays because he needs to rescue Rey.
    Finn is the one who tells them about the oscillator and shields.
    Finn openly says he has no idea what to actually do, he's just there to get Rey.

    Sorry, I would have made a joke instead but you threw a temper tantrum last time someone made a joke in your general vicinity the last time we talked.

    And HothLeia is a smart gal. She was able to decipher a legitimate theory from being a dick, unlike you. It was a clean, fun back and forth before you came in insinuating something that wasn't there.
     
    #15 RoyleRancor, May 31, 2018
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Also, we've seen Rey and Kylo fight exactly one time when Kylo was actually against her and healthy.

    How did that end?

    upload_2018-5-31_9-17-47.png
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    And FWIW, both other times they fought they fought under different end games.
    Kylo has at no point intended to kill Rey. He's only been trying to capture/seduce/turn her.
    She was trying to kill him at the end of TFA.
    The difference between fighting to kill and fighting to subdue are very different.
     
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  18. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    In the Throne room, when she single handled all the best trained warriors in the galaxy and then helping Kylo Ren to finish the fight because he was on a bad stance it was a little bit too much and the next scenes with her when she one shots all the TIE fighter in the turret ( with no transiftion from the saber scene ??? ) was really surprising and then I gave up when she levitated the whole mountain at first try.

    And she's going to train herself with books and I didn't mentionned that she also beats ... Luke Skywalker.
     
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  19. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Ahh no hero's in Star Wars ever shot down Tie Fighters "Dont get cocky kid". How many did Poe take out at Maz castle in one sequence? Levitated the whole mountain. Can I ask when did levitation of rocks become the ultimate showing of Jedi power. Finally she did not beat Luke. Did you see his face he was simply toying with her. Sure she grabs the light saber finally and he backs off. Do you honestly think that if she had chose to continue that was the end of Luke?
     
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  20. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    First, that turret scene is nothing. Luke managed to use it just as easy, and it was his first time on the Falcon. Finn does a pretty good job on the Falcon as well. Didn't Beckett even get a few kills? To? But a women uses its "oh my gawd, a triple kill?! Mary Sue!" Did you see what Luke was fighting with? A stick for most of the "fight." Heck, he uses the Force at the end of it to brace himself. He wasn't even trying. If anything, Kylo and Rey helped each other. They each had their kills.
     
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