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I staunchly defended Rey after TFA, but have

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by kuatorises, May 30, 2018.

  1. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Finn can bolt all he wants to, Han, Chewie, and the Resistance were there to blow up the shields, not rescue her.

     
  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Again, why did they get to the planet surface in the first place? Because Finn lied about how much he knew.
    If he doesn't go with the Resistance, it's likely they don't make the run on SKB.

    And yes laugh all you want, she is aware it was nothing personal and has all but made it clear. So, cool for you for still thinking that she cant handle this?
     
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  3. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    This is a few rocks. Actually, it's just one, which makes her feet even more of a violation.



    This is not:

     
  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Ah yes, that famous Yoda quote...

    Wait, that was it, wasn't it?
     
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  5. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    kuatorises: "I don't believe it." Yoda: "That is why you fail."
     
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  6. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Whatever, bro. I'm not in the mood to deal with people who have a case of case of the "I'm never wrong" today. It's a nasty incurable condition and I'm not in the mood to bang my head against the wall. I'm actually surprised that you did your "fake news" at the sight of something that proves your argument to be factually incorrect.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2018 ---
    What a predictable sentiment. People like you are why we are stuck with an unqualified boob as our leader. I guess I have to give you some kind of credit though, because you were able to resist the urge of simply yelling out, "Everyone who criticizes Rey is sexist!"
     
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  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Just saying that maybe the Force is a more mystical thing than you want to give it credit for. Of course I could be wrong (and ironically, so could you...) but when we're arguing about the ethereal powers in a space opera, I think we can reasonably expect some wiggle room in the universe.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    The force does what the writer needs to do. It always has. I have no idea why this is so hard to grasp for some.
    Every episode of Star Wars adds a level of force powers we have yet to see.
    Especially Empire which kind of redefines it.
     
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  9. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Pretty much. I have no problem with Sue being Married, so long as its conceded it was done well. After all, the prototypical Mary Sue in cinema is Neo, and that worked fine. Populistic stories tend to have characters doing incredible things for very thread-bare reasons as a reflection of people wanting to do incredible things with really no logic behind it. Its how it goes. Nobody should confuse Star Wars with Shakespeare.

    She was heavily toned down in 8, and my problems had nothing at all to do with her 'feats' and more to do with the characterization.

    For a character like that to really work, it needs an anchor. Luke's Anchor was Vader. Neo's Anchor was Trinity. Rey's Anchor needed to be her lineage and how she fit within the Skywalkers. That then lashes her to the Saga and gives a point of reference for the character, and why she does the things that she does.

    Instead, like first-year rookies, they went and made her Random. Now, like all things(don't believe me? Darth Maul, yo), it can be paved over, but that is the stated canon at this point and the direction they're supposed to be going. Being Random removes the possibility of using that lineage as an anchor, because its nothing the audience can invest in. Its nothing they can reference.

    And frankly, as far as i'm concerned, there was only ever one way That could have gone(and would have gone back to Lucas's original idea for the character), and they've pretty much killed any possibility of that happening with TLJ.

    Even if they were to try, they don't have the trust of the audience needed to sell it, because everybody at this point believes they're just making it up as they go(which they are). They've lost the trust of the audience, and if people don't trust you, you can't tell them stories and have them be believed. They had one chance to stick the landing, and they completely torched their credibility with TLJ.

    They're also crippled by the fact that Episode 9 now apparently needs to end the Saga. That means a hasty conclusion whereupon Rey and Friends win the day.

    One thing this will show, you can't just hire scrubs(I exclude JJ from that, but no one else at Lucasfilm) to do this blast. We've never seen an IP of this level literally destroyed by ineptitude(although the DCU is the runner-up), but I have a feeling we're about to. They have one more movie this set, and I don't expect much out of it. This really puts a spotlight on the absolute genius of Kevin Feige, and how well he's done in shepherding Marvel to where its at. It really shows the benefit of a methodical, measured build to managing the IP with the audience. Go too fast and try to rush it, and you get the DCU or Star Wars.
     
    #49 ScumAndVillainy, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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  10. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    There's no defending the difference between what the two of them did in the two clips I posed. At all.
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I mean, there is... by what I just wrote.

    You're trying to put the Force into a box, and I just don't think it works that way.

    ...

    "At all."
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Luke should have never been able to pull the lightsaber from the ice to defeat the Wampa. No one taught him how to and we hadn't seen such use of force telekinesis before. It ruins the verisimilitude of Star Wars.

    Or, the force is just an established in universe ex-machina that allows heroes to do heroic things that are otherwise impossible tasks and trying to measure it like an RPG skill is a fool's errand.
     
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  13. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    ......what?

    I think I speak for everyone, okay maybe just the person who disagreed with your comment, when I say I have absolutely no idea what the F you're talking about.

    Neo's abilities in the second movie were a problem. He didn't face any challenges and it made the movie boring. Look, if you want to talk about some other reason why you didn't like Rey in this movie, feel free, but make your own thread. This conversation is specifically about her abilities and how it affected my ability to like and cheer for her.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2018 ---
    There's pulling a light saber and then there's this:



    Speaking of that scene, it's pretty damn funny and counterproductive that you attempt to use it to prove your point when he clearly struggled to do it:



    Ray on the other hand, not so much. Easy peasy lemon squeezy for her Sueness.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2018 ---
    You spelled "I'm making excuses" wrong.

    One of these things is not like the other. Can you guess what it is?






     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Hey @kuatorises, please tell me exactly how the Force works. You're the expert, right?

    Otherwise, what are you even arguing about? :)
     
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  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    When was Luke taught how to use telekinesis to pull a lightsaber with the force?
    If you can't answer this, then it's just you being stubborn.

    He wasn't taught. He just did it.
    He just out of nowhere pulled a lightsaber out of ice.

    Size matters not.

    If you believe it, the force can basically will it.
    It cannot be measured. It cannot be quantified.
     
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Well, to be accurate, Starkiller poofing the Hosnians is what leads Han there. He isn’t helping Leia’s Resistance just because of Rey. Odds are he would have ended up there confronting his son either way.
    Sure, but if she isn’t captured, then Kylo probably doesn’t order the FO to retreat and many more people die. Rey’s decision likely saved more lives than it cost. Anyhow, Rey feeling any ownership over Han’s demise certainly isn’t something I took away from anything communicated on screen. Feeling responsible for maimed Fin, I get, but not so much Han. I think you’re reaching a bit there.
    Maybe it seems dumb, but you do have to factor the Force into this don’t you? Luke scored an impossible shot at the end of ANH by relying on instinct instead of targeting. It’s not crazy to expect Rey, who’s apparently far more gifted than him, is doing the same thing.
    I’m not sure you can exactly call those “failures” though. The objective was achieved, just not exactly the way that was intended. That’s still a success. Rey wanted to learn more about the Force - she did. She wanted Luke to reignite hope in the galaxy - he did.

    I don’t really accept that failure is a prerequisite for character growth though. Rey’s journey in TLJ was comprehending her own significance - to find her place in all this. It wasn’t to find the hero of this story, but to become that hero - to make that inward discovery. That was the greatest challenge for her: to acknowledge her own worth and embrace her station instead of hiding from it. It’s an evolution of what TFA established. It’s maybe not as flashy as Luke’s journey, but it’s equally as important in my opinion. But, what do I know :)
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    1. It's what pushes Han back into the foray, yes. But as to the specific scenario that puts him on SKB....

    2. If she isn't captured they may have retreated anyways at the arrival of the Resistance fighters.

    3. You always have to account for the Force in Star Wars. That's why arguing any of this from a place of sincerity is silly.
     
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  18. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    Expert? No, I'm simply using what we've seen in the movies as evidence for what we know about it. See the clips I posted; which you keep pretending don't exist, because if you acknowledge that you would easily be able to admit they show that she is vastly more powerful than he is with absolutely no training. What's that? Luke had little training? Little is more than none.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2018 ---
    This is apologist speak.

    MOD EDITED
     
    #58 kuatorises, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2018
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  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Good lord, man, I'm not ignoring them.

    That was Luke.

    Is Rey named Luke? Are her circumstances exactly the same?

    All I'm saying is that you seem to have some insight into exactly how the Force works that none of the rest of us have, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to make these claims. So please, enlighten us!
     
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  20. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    I thought that you were better than the other apologist clown. I don't know why, but I did. But you're obviously not. I just don't enjoy talking to the kind of person. Adios.
     
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