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I staunchly defended Rey after TFA, but have

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by kuatorises, May 30, 2018.

  1. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Yes beacuse they all take place telepathically. The mindtrick is an advanced form of telepathy making people think or feel in a certain way leading to a certain behaviour. This is pretty obvious since whoever uses the mindtrick literally says what he wants their "victim" to belive in their mind. Rather than communicating they are directly projecting thoughts and ideas basically persuading somebody telepathically. How do we know this? Well Toydorians are immune to this and Watto says so in TPM. As for communicating with the force ghosts I assume it only takes place in the mind as well. Why? Well it's simple a) Yoda learns about it in the Clone Wars lost episodes and b) forceghosts are not real (they never directly interact wtih anything) and can only be seen in the mind of whoever it is they want to talk to. This is pretty obvious in ROTJ when nobody reacts to the forceghost of Obi Wan, Anakin and Yoda except for Luke. Leia, hugging Luke pays no attention to them whatsoever. So yeah, forceghosts are probably only representations of the force in someone's mind aka telepathy which would also explain why at no point in Canon a forceghost has been witnessed by multiple people at once.

    The key is to observe how the force behaves which then allows you to draw conclusions. If nobody could do X then why could Rey do X? If everybody needed a teacher to learn Y, then why did Rey not need one? It's not that hard to understand, really.
     
    #121 BobRoss, Jun 22, 2018
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Ahhhhhhhh so that's how the Force works?

    So good to know!

    Seriously man, I think I'm done here. You are literally making up arbitrary rules for how space magic works and trying to make other acknowledge them.

    Absolutely ridiculous. Consider me completely unconvinced.

    Have a good day, though!
     
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  3. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I give you multiple examples based on observation and exclusively canonic sources including scenes from the OT and PT but you are not convinced, heck you are not even engaging in a discussion. But I understand that you prefer your deus ex machina "the force whills it!" over the writers putting some actual thought into their writing because isn't it nice to have suspenseless movies where the force comes to save our heroine whenever a challenge comes along the way?
     
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  4. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    That's not what the term means. The concept is something that has no relation to the story, suddenly appearing in the story to resolve the conflict. The force has been in Star Wars since the first movie. When Ben Kenobi used the mind-trick on the stormtroopers in order to circumvent the problem, it was not an ex machina because the force is introduced into the story and has a relationship to the story. It's akin to the ring of invisibility/One Ring from the Tolkien stories; yes, invisibility can allow the protagonist to circumvent a lot of potential trouble, but it is not an ex machina, it is a legitimate story element, as is the use. Yes, the force can be used to circumvent a lot of problematic situations, but this is the nature of the story element. In fact, every time the force is used in Star Wars it is precisely to circumvent a problematic situation.

    Was it "ex machina" when Luke used the force to deflect multiple blaster shots while blindfolded? Was it "ex machina" when Luke force-pulled the saber to his hand in the Wampa cave? "Ex machina" when Vader deflected Han's blaster bolts? When Luke communicated with Leia? When Anakin could podrace? A previously unseen force ability being brought into the story to circumvent a problem has been a staple of the saga since inception. To criticize that recurring element now is; let's call it, spontaneous inconsistency in standard of judgment.

    An ex machina would be Dr. Who showing up to free Rey, then disappearing in his TARDIS.

    That's a statement, but now what if I say, there were no problems with the PT and there are none in the ST. You are committing a false equivalency with your own subjective likes/dislikes with an objective good/bad where none exists. The same as if you don't like hard rock music, and so make the statement that, the problem with musicians who write rock is that they are surrounded by yes men and have no one around them to tell them "That's not good... That sucks". The problem isn't actually with the music or the musicians, the problem is with you, and your inability to recognize the false equivalency of which you're guilty.

    And if I say, all of your agreement is based on false premises including misuse of jargon, popularity fallacy (i.e. a group of many people in agreement can't be wrong), lack of knowledge of story elements, and bad reasoning; and that your critical eye has cataracts?
     
    #124 metadude, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  5. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    @BobRoss, @cawatrooper, you're done now. Go your separate ways.
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I gotchu dog

     
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  7. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    That works!
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    My gripe with that scene, and that’s all it is, was the apparent deliberateness of it. Not that she could do it. With the ‘mind probe’ thing, she had an obvious frame of reference: it was happening to her right then. She figured out what he was doing and then instinctively did it back to him. Cool. He’d underestimated her and hadn’t prepared for that possibility. That makes some decent sense to me.

    With the ‘mind trick’ though, it’s presented as knowingly intentional. She’s not sure it will work, but clearly she’s purposefully attempting it as though it’s something she’s already aware can be done. If that’s the case, fine, just set that up a little better is all I’m saying. If not, maybe have her discover this organically on her own. She makes an off the cuff demand of Danny Craigers (for example) and he surprisingly does it. Then she connects those dots on her own. Neato burrito.

    Stuff like this makes me wonder just how much from the events of the OT is the average person in this galaxy aware of. It isn’t’ really addressed. Luke, Leia, and Han are seemingly household names, but how much detail is actually out there? Did 3PO recount their crazy adventures ROTJ Ewok style to an audiobook and upload it to the holonet? Are there Star Wars fans IN Star Wars now? That’s what it’s seeming like to me :confused:
     
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  9. Sparafucile

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    I wasn't around here when TFA came out, but I did not have an issue at all with Rey pushing back against Kylo's mind probe. I was still all in at that point, disbelief suspended. The mind trick did pull me out though, it just seemed too specific a skill for the lack of build up to it. JJ missed a few sentences or a scenario there that didn't quite make that leap as smooth as it was intended. At least not for me.

    As much as it pulled me out of the movie for a few seconds, I got back in and stored that back to explore later. Then I figured they'd have some sort of explanation to it in TLJ. When TLJ failed to explain that, and then double downed on her untrained powers, well, that and (multiple) other things kept me from enjoying TLJ at all. It also got me on board the MS wagon.

    It's been established over 6 movies that training is needed to properly manipulate the Force. If they want to change that in the ST, okay, but they need to explain how and why, at least to some extent. Now there's still another entry to this trilogy, so who knows, maybe JJ has this all planned out and it all makes sense by the end of IX. The problem is that I thought that would be the case after TLJ and it never happened, and it seems less and less likely that they'll double back and explain anything now.

    Then there's this. I think to some extent, I'm mixing messages together here. I'm not getting answers I need to suspend my disbelief, and then when I'm questioning those choices I seem to be getting accused of being horrible things by some "lovers", as well as RJ, JJ and KK for not buying into their story. So that leads me to being defensive of my questions, because I think they're well founded based on the lore we've had. It's not that I'm unwilling to see the Force expanded upon, but I need certain steps to be taken to get me there. I need the bread crumbs, but I can't see the next one and I feel I'm often being attacked or ridiculed for it. Then that leads to resentment of the product that is being delivered to me. Then it snow balls.

    After six months I'm much less emotional about the whole thing and am better able to see things objectively, or at least within context (it is just a movie after all). I'm starting to better understand where my dislike is coming from. As much as I dislike these elements and have issues with them, I probably would have been more on board had JJ, RJ and KK said something like: "Stick with us, IX will have a big reveal." or some such message. Instead they did a lot of name calling. Again, months later, I realize that quite possibly I wasn't the one the name calling was directed at, but that isn't completely clear either. But even if I wasn't the intended target, I'm not getting any reassurance that my questions will be answered. It actually seems more likely that they won't be.

    Which brings me to now. I don't feel any attachment to the ST due to much of the early emotions TLJ evoked from me. I'm further distanced because of the stance taken by RJ and company, and the story itself doesn't lend a whole lot of intrigue into IX. The OT characters are mostly gone or phased out to the background. I feel rejected by the story tellers, and some of my fellow fans. A common reaction to that is to reject back and find solace in those who feel like I do.

    It's sad, because I don't think it had to be. Unless if I'm completely misreading what the story is about here, I think they could have accomplished and told that story with just a few more bread crumbs and staying positive when dealing with criticism. Anyways, I seem to have drifted off topic. I hope IX finds a way to tie things together to I can enjoy the ST as a whole.
     
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  10. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I’m sad you feel that way, but it’s good that you keep things in perspective and try to understand this is just a movie made by people like ourselves who have their own visions or expectations for this franchise.

    As for those breadcrumbs you were looking for (great analogy btw!) I’ll tell you my take on it. I think that the SW universe in the ST is a little bit like our world. In our world we know about SW mind tricks and how Jedi use them. Rey and Poe, and even Finn have heard of the Jedi and their powers, just like any fan in our world. They have all that groundwork done for them. If JJ had come out in TFA with instances of Rey discovering the powers of the Jedi we would have felt: “ugh, why do we have to have this explained again?! We know about the previous films! We know about the force! I’ve seen it before or I have been told about this before! This film thinks the audience is dumb” and so on and so on.... it was better for JJ to make Rey know all this stuff the same way the audience knows. A storytelling shortcut, we could say. Breadcrumbs not needed. :)
     
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  11. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Rey should have never beaten Kylo Ren in TFA as there was no arc to go after that. I still don’t know what Rey’s arc is for these movies other then finding her heritage. It’s s shame cause I think Rey is a good/likeable character and Daisy Ridley does a great job, but Kylo Ren has become the better character.
     
  12. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    I have shied away from this thread. Rey is a complete garbage in TLJ. She acts like a complete bimbo. She's just there to look pretty at the camera. There is no purpose to her. When l watch her I just get this image in a still that is supposed to look amazing. The fight against Kylo, the guard scene, her lifting rocks. It's just visual with no character development or story. She's just irrelevant and is there to sell toys to girls.

    Yet I still prefer her to Kylo, stomp around, pig swill ren. He's just anotother cheap Loki, bland.

    I love Daisy but dislike Rey now, I can't defend her. Daisy needs shed star wars the sooner the better.
     
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  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    It would be nice if they made that clearer. They touch on it in TFA, but it seems from the discussion with Han, Rey and Finn that the stories are passed down as hearsay more than anything else. The Force and Jedi's seem like a pretty rare thing to see, and there also seems to be a fair bit of people who think it's all hokey religions and tall tales (or else Han wouldn't feel the need to defend it). I would imagine it as something similar to claims in our world of someone being healed by a religious figure. Even if you're in the same room, it's hard to quantify. Since they're not around Force users, all you have is the story without a real life example. It would be exceedingly easy to dismiss. Even with Han saying "it's all true, all of it" (I got chills the first time I saw that scene and still do... for me, that was the best scene in the ST).

    As for those who'd complain about added detail, I think that would mostly be (and I dislike using titles) the "lovers", since they've already bought into it. I think there would have been far less complaining by adding a couple lines to clarify how they've accessed and heard these stories than what we're getting now. That's admittedly just a guess though, but I think "lovers" would get over that much quicker than "haters" who need that info to move on.
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    this assumes the ST is about them fighting though, don't you think?
    in TLJ it did go somewhere else. i suspect IX will take it even farther afield.
    Rey has tried to kill him. she has tried to save him. what's the next step?

    Abrams literally got the light saber battle between them "out of the way" up front so that they could develop in other ways.
     
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  15. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    It's not really about who wins, it's about that Rey has no real arc or real struggle and I think they are doing a disservice to her character. She just kind of picks up everything with the force, heck she can even understand Chewbacca and BB8. As I said, I think Rey was the best character after TFA and Ridley was likeable just like Luke in the OT (which is pretty big shoes to fill) and they just don't really know where to go with her compared to Kylo Ren who I believe has become the more compelling character.
     
  16. FN-3263827

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    i dunno. i thought her misguided attempt to go fetch Ben was pretty well motivated and an incredible failure for her.
    people literally complained about her having a connection with the "villain" because they thought it would minimize her as a female character.
    but she is fighting so hard and i feel like people don't appreciate it enough.
    her every instinct went for what she thought would be an easy fix.

    to me, the focus on her powers is misplaced. even if we agreed she was a "Mary Sue" in this regard, for me her strength in the Force isn't what the ST is about.
    as with Ben Solo, she has emotional/psychological weaknesses and that's where her struggle is.
    these two people are ridiculously powerful, but all that power doesn't make them rich, successful, or happy.
    it's not Rey's power that gives her what she most wants: to feel like she belongs.

    fair enough if that isn't interesting to people.
    i personally find it more interesting to see someone learning and growing as a person than learning how to lift rocks.
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Ugh. Clearly you don't understand the Force is only applicable like a TTRPG where you need to spend X amount of resources to get even just +1 Force ability!!!!
     
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  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    The thing I think you miss is that Luke lives at a time where the Force and force users like the Jedi have basically been wiped from public knowledge. He asks in ANH "Whats the Force". Rey lives in a time where Luke Skywalker is a legend and the force is known again. So she has likely heard tales of what the Jedi have done. Now I dont think it is realistic that when Luke was introduced that tales of the Jedi would be gone from most of the galaxy, but that is what his knowledge is presented as. Rey's isnt. She knows about the Jedi in TFA.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2018 ---
    So watching ESB yesterday and specifically the training scene. I think people put to much into the training scenes in ESB and TLJ. The training scenes arent meant to show how Jedi's get trained. They are about character arc and showing the flaws of the character. The training is just a tool to show the flaws. Luke's training is to show his impatience, his non belief, etc. Yoda specifically calls him out on this. His training has nothing to due with his survival against Darth Vader later on. As my wife said yesterday Vader was just toying with him. Vader didnt try to kill Luke after ANH. Not once. For Vader it was always getting his son to join him and ultimately he joined his son. For Rey the training is just to show her flaw which is different then Luke. It is who is she, why was she abandoned, when will she have family again. Like Luke in ESB Rey in TFA was never in danger with Kylo since he wasnt going to kill her he was going to subdue her. He wanted to have her join him/Snoke. This carried over into TLJ.

    The force and force powers are secondary parts of the story. It exists to move the story forward not to make the story exist. Luke didnt win in ROTJ because of the Force. Luke won because of fathers need to love his son and daughter. Luke won because he wouldnt turn. Rey won in TFA because she gave in to the Force and let it flow through her with a ton of help that Kylo was bleeding out profusely. Ep9 conflict wont be a battle of to see who is stronger in the force. Star Wars has always been this, it has never been about who is stronger in the Force.
     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Also consider it was pretty well established that Owen actively wanted to stifle any knowledge Luke might have of his dad - including his role as a Jedi. Luke had a pretty insulated existence: a farm in nowheresville, on a nothing planet, raised by a guy who intentional withheld (and falsified) information. Even then though, Luke doesn’t ask “what’s a Jedi? when he hears that word.
     
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  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Also remember when Yoda first meets Luke and Luke doesnt know who Yoda is. Luke says "I'm looking for a great warrior". Not a great Jedi, not a great teacher, but warrior.
     
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