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I think the Luke vs. Vader Duel in Empire Strikes Back is UNBEATABLE

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by AllHailVader, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    While the duel in Empire is amazing, I do think the duel in Jedi is better. It's more on an equal footing and what makes it great is that the real duel isn't the saber fight, but in the heads of our characters. Luke isn't trying to defeat Vader, he's trying to save him.

    Okay, after seeing a lot of your posts, I'm starting to suspect that you are either a troll or George Lucas in disguise.
     
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  2. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I have to quote old Ben by saying it all depends on a certain point of view. Sure TESB duel is great but I really can't say it's the best thing in the galaxy and that it will never be beat. You said yourself that this was because of drama, direction, setup, set-pieces, and finale yet if I use this as a reference then I have to say that Luke and Vader's duel in ROTJ has the one from TESB beat on all accounts. We have that dark eerie atmosphere and look of the Emperor's throne room with a viewport where we can see the Rebels battle and when we compare things dramawise, we can see things in a new light. When Luke confronted Vader in TESB, in his mind, Vader was just a simple bad guy that he had to take down to save his friends. Vader in this point is also just a simple villain that we have no feelings for and we just want Luke to kick his butt for having killed Ben and torturing Han. There was no empathy for Vader as he was just the villain of the movie. It isn't until the final ''I am your father'' moment of the whole duel that surprise takes us but that just came when everything was already over. We tend to see this duel incredibly awesome because we already know Luke and Vader's relationship but this doesn't have the same feel for someone seeing TESB for the first time.

    In ROTJ, we already know that Vader is Luke's father and we also know many more things that make this battle even more intense and sentimental. Vader's conflict of emotions over his feelings for his son, Luke trying hard to save his father while the Emperor taunts him with the lure of the Dark Side, the tension of Luke being on the Death Star while his friends are doing everything they can to destroy it even though Luke is on board and the conflict of emotions that Luke felt when Vader taunted him by saying he'd turn Leia to the Dark Side were just a few of the things that make the duel from ROTJ even more awesome than the one in TESB.

    As I said before, Luke vs Vader on Bespin didn't hit that emotional nerve until Vader's great revelation and this was when their duel was finally over but the duel in ROTJ carries a great sentimental burden even before Luke draws his lightsaber and tries to kill the Emperor not caring if he fell to the Dark Side or not.
     
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  3. Make It Up Man

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    Calm down I was just quoting a old joke my brother says to me.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2016, Original Post Date: May 23, 2016 ---
    So I'm guessing any one who disagrees with this is trolling, I never did say it was horrible, I just don't agree that this is unbeatable.
     
  4. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    You are the very first person I've met on this forum who says that they like the prequels that I've suspected is a troll. Everyone else who has I do feel is genuine.
     
  5. Make It Up Man

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    So liking the prequels means you're a troll???
     
  6. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    That's not what I said. That is the opposite of what I said. I said that you are the first who have expressed such a view that I think is a troll. I don't think that the other prequel lovers I've encountered here are. For example, I disagree with CTrent29 often (especially on the prequels), but I don't think she's a troll.
     
  7. Nizzrao

    Nizzrao Rebelscum

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    I love all the prequels, people can hate all they want

    upload_2016-5-23_20-28-45.png
    upload_2016-5-23_20-29-3.png
     
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  8. Make It Up Man

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    I like all the movies, but I never thought all of them were perfect, we are human whether it be writers, producers, directors, actors , and fans, etc
     
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  9. HeirTrilogy

    HeirTrilogy Rebelscum

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    Agree completely, the tension that is brought by what is going on in the story is what elevates this. I like the choreography as well, but the story, the set, the dialogue, the actual fight, and then some choice shots, are added together and that is what makes the duel iconic.
     
  10. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    This.

    For me, the duel in ROTJ just pips TESB at the post in a photo finish. Although I have to disagree that "Vader was just a simple bad guy that he [Luke] had to take down to save his friends" in the duel in TESB. I mean, Luke is ostensibly falling into a trap laid out by Vader and the Emperor, sacrificing himself and perhaps the future of GFFA to try and save his friends, and he thinks he is fighting the man that killed his Father. Those are some pretty high stakes that hit the 'emotional nerves', even before the big reveal.

    That said, I still think ROTJ wins. Not just because I enjoyed it cinematically, not just because of the dynamic between Luke, Vader and the Emporer, not just because we were going to see the culmination of Light v dark and Luke comming into his own as a Jedi and all the other obvious stuff. No, for me, I liked it due to the extended build up, which was really comming since Luke found out he had to face his father as his father from Yoda and Obi-Wan. The killer for me though, the bit that really gets me excited for the duel, is how Luke surrenders himself to his father, and his fate, and the dialogue and interaction between Luke and Vader before they fly up to the DS. Well, it's just like extended light saber duel excitation. So by the time the duel takes place, it's just amazing. And it fulfills all expectations.

    So, if you took the duels out of the movie and looked at them out of the context of a whole movie viewing, I would probably pick TESB. But taken within the context of a whole movie, definitely ROTJ.
     
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  11. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    My problem with this duel is that Luke should have won. They are on the cat walk and Luke clearly hits Vader on the right shoulder with a killing blow. Literally half of Vader's upper torso should have been sliced off. A lightsaber can slice through everything in the universe except Vader's right shoulder. That is one bad ass shoulder.
     
  12. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    We do know that there are lightsaber resistant materials (and we see them in films), so the odds that Vader having some incorporated in areas of his armor isn't absurd.
     
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  13. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    Maybe, but that was not a glancing blow, it was a complete chop. Anyway, I know what I am saying does not feed the story at this point, but its one of the reasons why I like the Return of the Jedi fight more.
     
  14. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    I loved the ESB duel for a reason nobody's mentioned yet. That was the fight that made Luke a Jedi.

    Remember the trash compactor? Blaster bolts ricochet off the walls and a tentacle wraps around Luke's leg. A lightsaber is the perfect weapon for the situation, but Luke begs Han to blast the tentacle instead. Luke wasn't a Jedi yet. It was still his father's lightsaber. He hadn't earned the right to use it yet.

    Later, in Cloud City, Boba Fett surprises Luke and fires a few shots at him in an empty hallway. Luke doesn't reach for his lightsaber. Instead, he draws his blaster and peeks around the corner. Luke still wasn't a Jedi.

    But a few minutes later Luke meets up with Vader. This time he draws his lightsaber. This time he's accepting his fate and fulfilling his destiny.

    Or, to think of it in a different way, Luke had his father's lightsaber in ANH and most of ESB, but when he finally meets Vader in Cloud City - the very moment he ignites it - that lightsaber becomes Luke's. That's when it quits being Luke's link to the past and becomes his weapon in the present.

    Luke earned his right to use a lightsaber during that duel.

    Remember in Jabba's Palace when he introduces himself as "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo"? That wouldn't have worked before the Bespin duel because Luke wasn't a Jedi Knight before then. Or when he turns himself in to the Imperials on the forest moon, and the officer who turns him over to Vader says "He was armed only with this", handing Vader Luke's new lightsaber. He'd outgrown his blaster because he earned his lightsaber during the duel on Bespin.

    We all think of that scene as pivotal because of Vader's big reveal. Luke's acceptance of the Jedi weapon is every bit as pivotal in my opinion.
     
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  15. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    The irony is that Empire is the only film where he doesn't fire a blaster in the OT (he fires one he tried to steal from a guard right before tumbling into the rancor pit).
    Great post, by the way. Never really thought about it like that before.
     
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  16. HeirTrilogy

    HeirTrilogy Rebelscum

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    I've never noticed that, I guess I get too caught up in the closeness and tension to actually think about the physics. Good spotting.

    Maybe we should add a new phrase to the modern lexicon. "Vader's shoulder", to be used when explaining the opposite of "Achilles' heel". :)
     
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  17. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    [​IMG]
    Vader be like:
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Nizzrao

    Nizzrao Rebelscum

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    This gave me goosebumps reading it. Truly one of the greatest moments in cinematic history, for one of the greatest heroes in cinematic history, in the greatest saga of cinematic history.
     
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  19. JV-24601

    JV-24601 Rebel Official

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    It's a good middle ground, both chronologically and thematically, between their other duels. Their first duel, which takes place in the comics, occurs when Luke neither understands what his relationship to Vader is, nor does he have the skill to face Vader. He gets his lightsaber ripped out of his hands seconds into the duel, and is only saved by the arrival of the others. In Empire, he has significantly more skill, able to drive Vader off once and wound him once, but he still doesn't understand their connection. It's only in Jedi that he fights not only with a Jedi's skill, but with a Jedi's mentality: this isn't just a physical battle, but a spiritual one as well. Each duel represents a step in Luke's growth as a character.
     
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  20. FreddieMac

    FreddieMac Clone Commander

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    I agree, this is a very good statement. This is why I always was puzzled why everything thinks Episodes IV,V and VI is about Anakin. Yes it's about Anakin's ultimate redemption, but the story is really about Luke's development. It is about his quest to redeem his father, and his willingness to resist the turn to the dark side in the critical moment. It is Luke's actions, not Vader, that ultimately frees the galaxy. Vader killing the Emperor always came off to me as more a love for a child and not an attempt to redeem his life. Vader's reaction in the moment was more like a person lashing out at an abusive spouse or master after years of abuse.
     
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