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If TLJ disappointed you, what does JJ have to do in IX to get you back?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Johnny Thunder, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. Snoke33

    Snoke33 Clone Commander

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    I still don't think I've ever been so disappointed in my life, than when I was sitting in the theater when the credits came on at the end of TLJ. I'm being completely serious too. I was so hyped up and so massively let down. I almost felt betrayed. But anyways here's my list.

    1. Somehow make Luke relevant and important to story still
    2. Give Rey some real Jedi parents. (letting everyone be a jedi is not cool. in fact its lame)
    3. Redeem some of the terrible roles the characters got in TLJ. (Finn, Rose, Hux, Phasma (unless shes dead), R2-D2, Chewy. How did all these characters end up getting half assed roles I still don't understand. I'm trying not to rant.)
    4. Give me a cliff hanger in the trailer. Like a big one. because I'm not excited to see Rey vs Kylo again at this point. Terrible job building them up so far.
    5. Knights of ren, and just following up on some more things that JJ hinted at that Rian completely ignored.
     
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  2. AfroJedi69

    AfroJedi69 Rebel Official

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    LUKE SKYWALKER WAKING UP TO FIND BOTH EPISODES 7 AND 8 WERE JUST NIGHTMARES BROUGHT ON BY THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!!
     
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  3. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel Official

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    Get the tone of the film right this time which I'm confident they will. Episode 8 was too light and fluffy for me. Although I've come around to liking some of it I left the theatre thinking TLJ was RJ's idea of a joke, a Star Wars themed comedy spin off that was intentionally unfunny to troll the audience.
     
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  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I think there needs to be a distinction between letting everyone and/or anyone become a Jedi.

    I think, or at least my interpretation, is that force sensitive people manifest themselves more or less spontaneously. The sole exception we've ever seen of this are the Skywalkers, and Anakin being a chosen one means that situation is unique or at least extraordinarily rare. So in a way, anyone can be force sensitive, and thus be able to manipulate the force and thus be trained as Jedi. However, not everyone is force sensitive, or has the force in a way that they can manipulate (though everyone is connected in a way through the force).

    That's pretty much why I don't have an issue with Rey Random. However, I also don't have an issue with her being Kenobi or especially Skywalker, because just because she'd be a Kenobi, it would not mean anything (as in the force being hereditary) beyond being a specific coincidence, or maybe the Force's will for some unknown purpose. In my understanding, there's a reason why the force chooses people more or less at random, but the Force can also choose someone for a purpose, as it did for Anakin, and now supposedly Rey. The will of the force could be an interesting plot point, done right.

    So in short, few (as in astronomically few) people have the connection to the force required to be Jedi. However, other than Skywalkers, the force is not hereditary. There is no royal line of force users, it manifests itself seemingly randomly through gender and species, from people born with or without the ability (but since more are without, it is likely to be from parents who do not have a connection).

    I mostly agree with the rest.
     
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  5. Revan7

    Revan7 Rebelscum

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    Hard Pass. I have never been a HUGE fan of Luke. I'll give him the respect on the fact he rescued his friends and quasi redeemed his father, but Luke - cinema wise - was always a whiny character that I couldn't enjoy. If they brought in the Luke I knew from the books - I'd 100% agree, but this character in TLJ is everything I disagreed with.

    As for the OG post, JJ has to explain his open ended questions. Wrap up the Knights of Ren, give me a better back story to Rey, answer the Snoke Questions, etc. This movie needs to tie up the loose ends to make sure it's decent.
     
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  6. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    I'm not sure about this. Should we take for granted that the force has chosen Anakin, or even Rey for that matter? I agree that the will of the force is an interesting plot point, but I suppose it was somewhat implied, or at least left ambiguous, if Anakin was chosen by the force, or if he was "created" by some other means. I always feel that Palpatine (or someone he knew) was behind the creation of Anakin when I watch TPM. Everything seemed to be perfectly placed and crafted for Anakin to turn to the Dark side as he did. Well, at least I am still not convinced it was The Force that has chosen Anakin, or if Anakin was a creation from some entity that maybe has used the Prophecy to implode the Jedi Order from within? Of course, we know how it ended, but for a moment, and if it was not for Luke, Palpatine could have won, at least in that day.

    Are you sure about that? I don't know if it's cannon or not, but TPM made a strong implication that it could be hereditary because if I remember correctly one of the first questions Qui-Gon Jinn made to Shmi, after checking the Midichlorians count was: "Who is his father?", and we know how the Skywalkers passed the force to their offspring, so I'd say the Force seems to have a somewhat strong hereditary nature, although that doesn't exclude anyone from being force sensitive, of course.


    As for your post overall premise, I agree that very few people seem to have a strong enough connection with the Force in order to be trained as a Jedi. It was quite clear that the Jedi Order didn't have that many students at a time, and it is implied it accounts for all the people of the galaxy since you see padawans of different species in the PT, if I recall correctly.

    That said, I did not see implied anywhere that the Force is not (also) hereditary. In fact the PT and the OT seems to reinforce the contrary. I believe George was going more the hereditary route at first, with the Midichlorians thing and the questions about Anakin's family. Luke says that Leia has that power too, because "My father has it, I have it, my sister ... has it".

    And this is why I think there's some disagreement about Rey being so strong and apparently not being of some predefined or known "lineage". I think the PT and OT implied strongly that the Force had a strong hereditary component, while after the AotC I'd say it seems Star Wars went the more "anyone can be force sensitive" route, which TLJ made a definite case of.

    So, in my opinion, it seems the Force manifests itself and can lead to some beings being more force sensitive than others. A miniscule amount if we take the entire galaxy into account, it seems. However, after a being becomes force sensitive, it seems that their offspring can "have that power too". At least that's my interpretation.
     
    #66 greenbalrog, Apr 8, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  7. Sparafucile

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    100%, absolutely not, I'm just extrapolating from what we've seen.

    Qui-Gon asking about his father could have other reasoning. He knew Anakin was a slave and force sensitive and at this point, so he could have been considering what hurdles (legal, familial, ect) he'd have to deal with to take him to the Jedi temple.

    As far as I'm concerned, the creation of Anakin by people, whether dark side or otherwise, is purely head canon. Though it's definitely an interesting theory, and there are coincidences that could lend to it's possibility, it's far from assured. I like the theory, however I don't pretend the theory is true or canon.

    So then comes Anakin being a Chosen one. We have a prophecy that predicts him, stating that he'd bring balance to the force. Anakin (or his offspring) fulfills that. Did the force choose Shmi and thus Anakin, or was it merely happenstance or chance? Just because Jedi, or at least Kenobi, doesn't believe in luck doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Maybe the force chooses every single individual specifically, or maybe it's more abstract... that has yet to be determined conclusively.

    All this to say heredity only exists in the Skywalkers, as far as we know, through canon, for certain. They could however expand on this if they choose.

    With Rey we have Snoke's statement that the Force chose her to counter Kylo's darkness. Again, an individuals interpretation in Snoke. Could it be wrong? Absolutely, but based on what we know so far it seems to be canon.

    Now, it is quite possible that the Jedi overly religiousized the Force and saw a will where there was none. Maybe the Force is more fluke, or some phenomena like gravity than willfull, but that would mean Jedi and Sith have had it wrong all along. An interesting idea, but unsustainable so far with what we know. Far more likely the Jedi had more right than wrong, unless things turn out otherwise in canon.

    So basically, everything so far is malleable, they have an exit strategy if they want to throw everything on its head. I'd question if there's an appetite for that. Going on what has been said, and observing what we've seen, it seems most likely that the force is usually not hereditary, that Anakin was chosen, ect... but I agree, most of it could be reversed.
     
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  8. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    For me, there are several things.
    1. I want a film that feels like Star Wars. I don't mean it has to look exactly like IV either. I just felt that part of TLJ, for example, HOldo's costume, felt like it wasn't Star Wars. Same for Canto Bight.
    2. Tie in the nu-cannon Aftermath trilogy (I'm hoping Knights of Ren are some how tied in with the Acolytes of the Beyond).
    3. Answer the questions posed in TFA ( film I really liked and still enjoy). Who/what are the Knights of Ren? Who was Snoke? Who is Rey (is she a clone, is she truly no one)?
    4. Tie this in to the other films and make it feel like it is the ending of the 9 film saga.

    Like others, I'm also not the biggest Luke fan (@Revan7) and never was, even at the age of 7 when I saw ANH for the first time. I latched on to Obi-Wan and to the droids first. By Empire I was all in on the bad guys. I also found him a bit too whiny.

    Personally, as a Star Wars fan, I just want the ST to end so we can all move on. I'm hoping the TV stuff will be good and I'm looking forward to seeing what the GOT guys can bring to the table.
     
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  9. DjChubakka

    DjChubakka Rebel Official

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    I wasn't disappointed. I enjoyed it.
     
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  10. Steven Lewis

    Steven Lewis Rebelscum

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    Really not sure, the ST feels so distant from the Saga to me at the moment. I realise that all three trilogies should have a seperate feel and tone, and that is fine, but the link with the Saga is tedious at best. Simply using the OT characters to bolster the new and rehashing the OT doesn't really do it for me. Palpatine is portrayed as the main antagonist of 1-6, and other than finishing what Vader started being stated by Ben/Kylo, there is no real link to the Empire. Replace Snoke with a clone of the Emperor and still having him killed by Kylo would IMO of linked the Saga far better.
     
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  11. Old Republic Citizen

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    Less or no Rose & Finn relationship. Their part of TLJ was absolutely pointless and the movie would have turned out a lot better without their arc.
     
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  12. patriot8813

    patriot8813 Rebel General

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    My biggest issue with last jedi was pacing and the attempts at comic relief undercutting dramatic moments. Throughout the film I felt several potentially dramatic moments were ruined by ill placed poor attempts at humor. Rather it be Luke throwing the light saber at the beginning, or Leia making a poor joke when she sits with Luke, it happens through out at different times and took me out of the film. There is a place for dramatic moments in Star Wars and a place for humor, and I think Rian, at times during the Last Jedi, failed to find the right balance. I'm hopeful JJ will do a better job, as I felt he did so with Force Awakens.
     
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  13. Madmartigan

    Madmartigan Rebel Official

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    Only being the director of EIX.
    I have enough only with this.
     
    #73 Madmartigan, Apr 8, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  14. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    It has been a while since I read it but I believe in the Tarkin novel it is implied that the Force created Anakin to counter what Plagueis and Palpatine were doing.

    So as much as many like to state that Palpatine or Plagueis created Anakin it appears technically not true. However it does seems their actions played a part. Anakin being created by the Force does follow the Chosen One prophecy
     
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  15. ObeeJaun

    ObeeJaun Rebel General

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    Actually, wasn't this in the now-non-cannon Plagueis novel?
     
  16. SirMarshall

    SirMarshall Rebel General

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    For me personally, I felt some of the humor in TLJ wasn't 'Star Wars' humor either. It felt more like Marvel humor. I'm not intelligent or articulate enough to really break down the difference, but I just know it when I see it. The type of humor in TLJ just didn't fit Star Wars. That said, I enjoyed TLJ overall. The humor just missed for me for the most part.
     
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  17. ObeeJaun

    ObeeJaun Rebel General

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    First of all, I don't think you can really not care, and still be here.

    Secondly, this would totally change my opinion of TLJ. I still wouldn't like Canto Bight, but I would really not have any problem with the movie. I'd send RJ a Christmas card.
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I agree with you completely here. Some jokes just killed the tone and pace of the film although I admit that Leia’s joke about her hair in that scene with Luke played beautifully and was IMO tonally right.
     
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  19. Maximum7

    Maximum7 Clone

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    Make it something that isn’t a CC of ANH and anti-Star Wars like TLJ
     
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  20. Bligh

    Bligh Rebel Official

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    Overall I like TLJ. But this is spot on. The humour was way off. The last 1/3 of the film is really strong... there's not much needless humour and te film feels serious enough to be a good middle to the Sequel Trilogy.
     
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