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If TLJ disappointed you, what does JJ have to do in IX to get you back?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Johnny Thunder, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. patriot8813

    patriot8813 Rebel General

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    It didn't feel right to me. I felt it was yet another lame joke referencing Carries buns in A New Hope. Maybe I'm off but that's how I took it. Like a joke for the audience, Carrie and Hamil. I know films do that, but it took me out of the movie and induced yet another groan for me at what was a pretty pivotal dramatic point in the film and the first on screen meeting of Luke and Leia since ROTJ.
     
  2. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    I looked back and saw I posted here last June, so I decided to do an update (if only to clarify my feelings and procrastinate on some work):

    My overall feelings haven't changed. TLJ is a complex movie, and my thoughts range from really liking it to being incredibly frustrated with it. My main three sticking points were Finn, the Knights of Ren, and Abrams Being Abrams.

    On Finn, this is a personal thing I have. Finn was the first character we were introduced to for the Sequel Trilogy. It was literally him surprising us by popping up on the screen looking desperate. It was awesome. Heck, he's the only character in that trailer to get two shots.
    In the marketing Finn was propped up as the dual lead with Rey. This didn't extend to posters, but everywhere else it was prevalent. Finn was shown using THE iconic blue lightsaber. Finn was our new look into the galaxy while Rey carried over the old "desert character" tropes from the previous movies, giving us an anchor.
    And then the movie came out, and everything was good...until the end. But that was okay! RJ could fix that; he could give Finn a meaty role for the next movie...and then TLJ came out...

    Here, my problem is twofold. After watching the deleted scenes and the director's cut for TLJ earlier this year, I'm convinced that the problem with Finn stems from the deleted scenes. Those scenes explicitly explain Finn's feelings on the larger conflict and give us insight into Finn's actions. To RJ, despite being cut those scenes still happened. But most of the audience doesn't have a clue they exist, and without them Finn's arc is jarring, boring, and more than a little disappointing. It paints Finn as a coward rather than someone who doesn't believe they fit in, and that's a problem.

    The second problem is a little more...tricky to navigate and involves race. I'm a black man. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I say this to give insight into how I view things sometimes. When Finn came out and was announced as a lead, I was excited. When Finn was seen holding THE Skywalker/Hero's Lightsaber, I was EXTATIC. But as time passed after TFA and TLJ I realized that Finn's purpose at the end of TFA was to hide Rey's Force Powers surprise. A chilling (ha!) moment for many, but I felt a dissonance. It felt like to me that it was another instance of a black person's...independence? role in the story? freedom? will? something along those lines...being cut short so that someone who isn't black can rise*. It felt like Finn had more or less been turned into the Black Best Friend. This isn't unique to just Star Wars, but it is a problem that I feel Star Wars could have - and still can! - avoided.
    If you think race isn't an issue, just ask if we'd be wondering if Finn could be related to Luke, Leia, or any other PT or OT character if he wasn't black. Heck, even Poe's heritage had theories DESPITE the fact that his parents LITERALLY HAD ROLES IN COMICS.
    Now how does this link with TLJ? Simple. TLJ did nothing to fix or remedy this. Or address it. Or see it as a problem. TLJ's greatest sin for Finn was complacency. Whether that was because RJ didn't feel he had a choice or because he didn't care about Finn doesn't matter at this point.
    This is my biggest fear for Episode IX. I'm afraid Abrams won't do anything special with Finn, and that will be massively disappointing with me. Or rather, I'm afraid that anything special Abrams does for Finn will be shown to highlight something else: Finn gains family to highlight the fact that Rey doesn't have any. Finn has friends and a purpose within the Resistance/Rebellion to highlight Rey's purpose is outside of that - Finn becomes a mirror for Rey, Poe, or anyone else, and I don't want that.

    I want Finn to stand on his own, with his own arc that's awesome and meaningful and epic. I want to believe JJ can do it! But at this point I'm not entirely sold...


    In terms of the Knights of Ren, I just want to know where the organization came from and how their naming scheme works. I want them to be cool, but frankly, after being introduced so late in the game, I'm kinda resigned to them being a "Quirky Mini-Boss Squad." They'd have to completely usurp Ren's role as the Bad Guy to do this, and while that would be fairly in line with Ren's struggle, the coup would completely ruin that this trilogy has been building towards Kylo...no, Ben being the Big Bad. There would be no consistency or cohesion as to who to fear in this trilogy anymore. As an audience we can't fear Kylo because he's too conflicted and we don't want Leia to lose everything; we can't fear Hux because RJ's characterization of him*; we can't fear the KoR because we know NOTHING about them; we can't fear Snoke because he's dead; we can't fear the F.O. because they have no leadership and haven't won a long-term battle against the Resistance on-screen.

    We have nothing to fear, and the Knights of Ren aren't going to change that. But it doesn't mean I don't want to see them. I want to know EVERYTHING about them. I just don't think that them being the Big Bad - if that happens - will be as satisfying as we think. I'll gladly be wrong though.


    Abrams being Abrams. By this I mean more heart, more action, and better pacing than TLJ. TFA worked so well because everything was paced perfectly, and despite the locations and characters and scope at times, the movie kept it's heart due to the laser-focus around Finn and Rey. TLJ, by contrast, was a VERY stationary movie. Rey was on two places the entire time. Finn on three. Poe on three if you could the escape shuttles. The pacing was off until DJ betrays Finn and Rose. The laser-focus hurt the characters because it was an uneven focus (again, Finn getting the short end of the stick).

    But if you haven't noticed, most of my problems start with TFA. I LOVE that movie, but it did set up a lot of problems going forward. Abrams coming back is his chance to fix them. And I really hope he does.


    This could all change in a couple of days (and I hope it does), but the giant wall of text above is how I'm feeling right now.



    *This isn't to say the TFA was in the wrong for impowering Rey or anything of the sort. I just believe that there was a way to do this without cutting down Finn so she could have her moment, metaphorically speaking.

    *Which is was a mistake IMO. But that's more of a personal reason than anything else.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Yeah I suppose it depends on how you receive the joke. If you think about the buns in ANH and you have read the princess diarist I admit a part of you may groan at the meta element of it all. But if you allow yourself to suspend disbelief and approach that moment as an awkward yet tender reencounter between two people who adore each other, who have suffered incredibly and carry the weight of the world on their shoulders, you’ll be rewarded with a pinch of tenderness in your stomach. It just worked for me.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    The humor in the PT is different than the humor in the OT*

    *not counting SE which were contemporary edits in the PT era*

    So of course the humor in the ST is different than the rest, it's from a different era with a much different sense of humor.
    I think it fit better than the poop jokes of the PT.

    And that's fine it doesn't hit with you because humor is the hardest thing to land for any movie. It's why so many studio comedies are largely forgettable. They aim for broad strokes comedy that just gets a chuckle or two and you forget about it a week later. But I think it's important to note the difference between "doesn't belong" or "not Star Wars" humor and just not landing for you.
     
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  5. SirMarshall

    SirMarshall Rebel General

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    I actually disagree completely that the humor is vastly different between the PT and OT. The humor in TLJ is different than any other live-action SW film. For me personally, all of it didn't fit. In a Marvel film, that opening segment with Poe as an example, would have been awesome. In Star Wars, however, that was very immersion breaking for me because it seemed like humor you can find at the highschool down the street and not in a galaxy far, far away.
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    If you can accept the Jar Jar fart/poop jokes of TPM you can accept the "mom" joke of TLJ as in universe.

    Again, it's the comedy of the time. If you are over the age of, say 20ish, the comedy isn't aimed at you. The comedy in the PT was VERY Dumb & Dumber IMO. It was the general prevailing comedy of the time. That comedy in the first scene is in "every" Marvel movie BECAUSE it is the prevailing comedy of the time. Marvel didn't invent it. They just perfected it.

    It's really not that much different than Han stalling while they rescue Leia in ANH. It's just Poe stalling while his turbo heats up.

    Again, this is not the same as you not liking it, but I do take very slight umbrage at the notion "it doesn't belong".
     
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  7. SirMarshall

    SirMarshall Rebel General

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    I think you're witch hunting a bit, the key word is 'vastly'. I never said the PT didn't have childishness in it. But saying the humor in TLJ isn't different than all other live-action Star Wars films is objectively false. Even TFA had OT and PT parallels. Content and tone are very different things and execution matters.

    Again, I actually really enjoyed TLJ. That doesn't mean I can't point out it's very clear differences to most of established Star Wars. Whether someone likes those differences or not is completely up to them.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    All the humor is objectively different. No one is suggesting otherwise. I openly said the humor is different. It's different in every trilogy.
    But you are suggesting that the humor in TLJ is so different it doesn't belong. THAT is objectively false.

    No one is witch hunting.

    "Parallels"
     
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  9. SirMarshall

    SirMarshall Rebel General

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    Actually, it isn't false. Tone, content and execution all matter. Two people can tell a joke with the same subject matter in two completely different ways. That's fine the humor lands for you, bud. I'm cool with that. However, to suggest something that is obviously new isn't new, is a bit silly.

    Will it grow on me if they continue on with Johnsons style? Not sure. Again, it all comes down to execution and content.
     
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  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Then how in the same breath can you say that the PT and OT are similar? Or at least more similar than the OT and ST?

    That's the disconnect to me. The humor in the PT stands out far more than TLJ. Especially in TPM.

    And I never even said the humor lands for me.
     
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  11. SirMarshall

    SirMarshall Rebel General

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    In that case, we aren't even talking about the same thing then. Heh. Have a good one.
     
  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I found the the mum joke in TLJ quite funny, even though it felt oddly modern and different from other SW's films, but it was pertinent and well acted... and it made you really engage with Poe in that fantastic dreadnaught bombing scene. For me some jokes in TLJ just make sense and are funny others just aren't. I don't know if it has something to do with the type of humour, with their place within the story or with the delivery... sometimes it's just a mixture of all three. Finn was graceless during that leaky suit scene with Poe, yet he was brilliant telling Rose "may the force be with you" in their first meeting. Luke tossing the saber felt awkward in that very dramatic scene, but his "yes, that's pretty much nowhere" referring to Jakku was sharp. Kylo giving that blank look to Hux after the latter gives exactly the same order he has already given in Crait is somewhat meta yet priceless. Sometimes the odd humour works and sometimes it doesn't. It's all personal preference, I think.
     
    #92 Kylocity, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Which is really my whole point.
    It's fine to not like it, it's fine it doesn't connect with everyone. Humor is the most subjective thing there is.
    I just don't agree with the notion it didn't belong in Star Wars or wasn't "Star Wars" humor.
    In this whole galaxy there's only one style of humor? Eh.
     
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  14. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    You're completely right. The only mandate of humour is to be funny, in SW or in anything. Plenty of bad jokes in the OT (let's not mention the PT) It's not like TLJ is breaking a tradition, right?
     
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  15. SirMarshall

    SirMarshall Rebel General

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    I have to push back again and come back to this conversation now. For one, I never said it didn't belong I just said it felt like Marvel humor. Again, you have been replying to me about a very different topic, actually. So, YET AGAIN, execution is everything. Humor is very subjective. Can new types of humor be in Star Wars? Of course. But it needs to be done well, and it fell flat for A LOT of people the majority of people. TLJ is still a solid film, but to sit here and say the humor isn't new ground is what is silly. The issue isn't that it exists, the issue for most is that it wasn't executed well and implemented well. Pacing, tone, and context all have to be taken into consideration and those things were wildly inconsistent at times. One of, if not the single biggest part of a joke or humor is timing.
     
  16. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Han is riffing on some random officer, Poe is riffing on one of the Leaders of the First Order. If Han were ragging on General Tarkin, then this analogy would work.

    Second, Hux’s commanding officer says that he’s getting played (I’m paraphrasing) so HE’s figures out what Poe is doing.

    Point is General Tarkin never gets played, it’s just some random officer in ANH and that’s why it’s funny. Plus the random officer figures it out when he says to Han,”Who is this?” Dummy Hux looks like a buffoon in that scene cause he’s one of the last people to figure out the joke.
     
    #96 Jedi77-83, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  17. JCooper1995

    JCooper1995 Rebel General

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    End the movie (I'm talking the ending of the credits and all) with the fanfare that concluded the original. That's all I ask. It's the epic music that this saga deserves to go out on.
     
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  18. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Yes you did. Right here:

    Define a lot. It's an abstract amount derived from hearsay at best.
    From this site, it worked for a lot of people. See how that means virtually nothing? All humor works for a lot of people. All humor doesn't work for a lot of people.

    Again, I have no beef with not liking it. My initial post was to you saying "I felt some of the humor in TLJ wasn't Star Wars humor....just didn't fit Star Wars."

    Oh good lord that's the mightiest of nitpicks. Poe is stalling. He's flustering Hux. Hux is easily flustered. He is especially sensitive about his mom (book bonus fact that makes it better but isn't essential).
    He is purposefully riffing on them to keep them from realizing what he is about to do. It's a take on getting the villain to explain their plan so the hero can escape. Riffing on Generic Officer 12 won't stall a thing. So he stalls the guy ordering the attack.

    Hux isn't Tarkin. Hux is Hux. He IS a bit of a buffoon and he is arrogant beyond what he should be. That's kind of a running trend in the FO. They want to be the Empire in the worst way but really aren't anything close to it yet. Hux doesn't *think* anyone can get one over on him.
     
  19. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    You may want to watch TFA again. Hux is not a buffoon in TFA. And the First Order blew up 5 planets (including taking out the whole new republic government) so I wouldn’t say that they were inferior to the Empire at all.
     
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  20. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    I enjoyed TLJ, I agree with what RJ said about going to films, I want to be surprised as well. I was surprised that Luke turned his back on the Jedi, Jedi lore is my favorite part of Star Wars, For example, some like the Empire and the FO, for me its the Jedi Order, I also like the Bounty Hunter's Guild( can't wait for Disney+ and the Mando series), nonetheless, I want to know more about Rey, who she is and who her parents are.

    For Episode 9 to blow me away, I still want those answers. I want Kylo Ren to be as feared as Vader. I don't want redemption for him. Killing his father is unforgivable for me, yet if he is redeemed I won't be upset, just have him redeemed with his life. Reylo, something that disgust me, and her ending up with Poe, is another thing that might trigger me, I don't see Finn with Rose but with Rey. That hug said it all for me at the end of TLJ.

    It would be cool for Rey to be a part of Palpatine's Jakku plan in the Aftermath series of books, but all I really want is a great film, no matter what happens, Reylo or whatever. Looking forward to a grand saber fight and a space battle to over shadow Rogue One's end battle. Also, Major Vonreg(red FO fighter pilot from the Resistance show) and Kylo's Red Stormtroopers is something I can't wait to see.

    I apologize in advance, for poking my nose in threads I don't belong. TLJ did not disappoint me in the least.
     
    #100 Rogues1138, Apr 10, 2019
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