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I'm so disappointed.. by the fans

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by thrawn_lives, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. thrawn_lives

    thrawn_lives Clone Commander

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    I left TLJ's first showing unable to discuss it with the friends I went with. So much had just happened, and I needed time to digest it all. I asked myself, is Rey really a nobody? Why did the the movie end with a nobody using the force? Why did Rose stop Fin from protecting the Resistance base? Why did Ackbar and so many characters we know get killed off? Why did Luke have to die after using his force projection?

    On second viewing the next day, it all connected. Rian had been left with a huge challenge. JJ set up a mystery box that had nothing inside. That's not a knock on JJ ... That's just his style of story telling. The outward appearance of a mystery is what he finds fascinating. He doesn't want the box open. So how could Rian, someone who is most concerned with characters and storytelling that moves those characters forward, deal with that?

    He takes that mystery box and tosses it over a cliff, literally symbolized by Luke tossing the light saber over the cliff. Rian understood that the one truth we know about Luke is he is not a coward. Because JJ stuck him on and island, Rian needed a reason that was true for that character. Cutting himself off from the force was the only way to explain why he didn't come save the day in TFA. And he needed a compelling reason to cut himself off from the force. His reason - a moment of weakness where he almost killed Ben was brilliant. But it had consequences. Luke was broken. He spent many years trying to bring back an old religion only to fail because of his nephew had already fallen to the dark side.

    Rian, being a master storyteller, finds that Rey is desperately seeking to find her place in all this. She seeks out a master who thought he was fated to bring back a new Jedi Order because of his bloodline of being a Skywalker. He trained a Skywalker, and that didn't work out. The truth in this film reveals itself to be that Rey is an anybody. She is good in heart, not spoiled by a noble bloodline that could have corrupted her. She fights for her place in this world, and doesn't get seduced by the prospect of power. She just wants to help the resistance.

    On Canto Bight we see this criticism of Nobility on full display. This planet of animal abusers and war profiteers are a stark contrast to the resistance that let's the Foxes take shelter with them, and are ultimately rewarded with an exit plan.

    The film stats with a needless sacrifice by Rose's sister. Poe should have turned around and run, but his hate for the first order blinded him to the truth that right now the resistance's only objective right now needs to be to survive and recruit more help. It ends with Poe ordering Finn not to sacrifice himself, and Rose stopping Finn from doing it.

    We find that Snoke wants Kylo to take on the mantel of Vader. He thinks that only a Skywalker (someone of noble bloodline) could be a threat. Kylo tries to neg Rey by telling her she's a nobody, but he will still let her rule with him. He's basically Jared Kushner.

    So we get to the end battle, where Kylo wants to end everyone who he ever cared about so he could create a better world. We have The Good Guys doing everything they can to keep their friends alive above all else. And we have a master Jedi, doing what Kylo told Rey would rip someone apart (doing a force projection), so that he could give his friends a chance to live.

    And just to make sure that even if JJ retcons that Rey is a Skywalker, Rian ends the film canonically reinforcing what we knew from the prequels and rebels - that anyone can be a hero.

    So when you get riled up that Snoke is dead, and Kylo isn't redeemable, that Rey is a nobody, and that Skywalker didn't need to die... please realize these all function as an important "Blast you" to the dangerous idea of worshiping nobility. It can all easily be retconned in Episode 9, and knowing JJ it might very well be. So please, try to appreciate the unique and moral story we got here. You still might get a lot of the wish fulfillment you desire when JJ returns. But for now, enjoy what we have. Because it's incredible.

    Anyway, about to head off for my third showing.
     
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  2. Darth Raybo

    Darth Raybo Rebel Official

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    Your post has caused me to rethink some things, what a great post. Thanks for writing what you took from the movie, I like the positive vibe and am waiting to see it for a second time.
     
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  3. thrawn_lives

    thrawn_lives Clone Commander

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    Thanks man. Try to watch it and think about what Rian is saying about nobility and fate. He makes a powerful case that what is good and right is not what a book tells us. It isn't what our history informed in us. It is what we choose to do with that knowledge, in relation to the people we care about.
     
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  4. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel Official

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    Hated it on first viewing. I love Star Wars, more than a casual fan, not quite a walking wikipedia page either but I still left the cinema feeling kinda sick, blue balled and confused. I liked it a lot more when I saw it a second time today though. It's decent enough, not quite as good as ROTS,on about par with Rogue One, better than TPM and AOTC I still have complaints but they're mostly complaints I tend to level at most modern blockbusters and no amount of whingeing from me will change trends like that so whatever. It's hard to rate though, the tone, and quality of characterisation/dialogue/special effects change massively from scene to scene. It's brilliant, then embarrising, then fun, then groan worthy, then dumb, then epic intermittently. The highs are extremely high but it throws you out of the film many times as well and keeps breaking the momentum it builds.

    The problems with this saga so far stem from Disney giving the filmmakers too short a time frame to make them, launching the sequels without having an story in mind, letting JJ run wild with his mystery box because even after 2 years of development they didn't have a story in place, hiring the wrong or incompatible directors etc. I don't blame JJ or Johnson for the trilogy not living up to expectations, seems like it's Lucasfilm lacking direction and making poor decisions alongside Disney imposing difficult timeframes and barriers for them to overcome. I would be totally fine with episode 9 being delayed another year or something by this point and future films being released much further apart, take the time to get it right instead of rushing things, they'll make more money in the long term the better the product is. Obviously. I don't get why Disney couldn't afford to let Michael Arndt get the films off on more solid foundations, why was getting the film out in 2015 so important?
     
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  5. thrawn_lives

    thrawn_lives Clone Commander

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    While I love stories that are planned with an arc in mind, I'm happy to give that up to see this original story told by a dedicated fan who is a master storyteller. He had complete freedom, like Lucas. And like Lucas, not everything was planned in advance.
     
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  6. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    That was a beautiful post my friend and I love the message you say the movie is trying to convey but I don't think it does it at all. Why on earth are we supposed to think of the Skywalker bloodline as "nobility"? The only nobility there were Leia's "adoptive" parents, and Bail dedicated his life after the fall of the republic to fight against the status quo and aid the rebellion until his whole planet was blown up. The Skywalker bloodline has actually very humble origins, Schmi was a slave, Anakin was a slave, Luke was a farmer, Han was a smuggler. I truly don't see the connection at all...
     
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  7. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    If I do recall, Lucas had 16 years between ROTJ and TPM to create a cohesive and original story. In fact, I thought he already had the prequel trilogy mapped out by the time of TPM, and look how those movies turned out. Disney's time frame has nothing to do with this, They have not restricted the film makers too much because apprently RJ had free reign and had control over every aspect of this film. If they found the film to be too comedic then they would have asked him to stop or fire him, much like they did Lord and Miller. In the long run, the SW fandom is one of the most active and vocal around, and ultimately I don't think there could be any pleasing them unless the new trillogy was to be about the continued adventures of Luke Skywalker or his children. Lucasfilm has hired some of the best directors there is to offer. The whole reason they hired J.J. is because STEVEN SPIELBERG suggested it. Solo may have lost it' initial directors due to differing visions, but Lucasfilm got RON HOWARD to come in. Has nobody seen any of RJ's other films? Seriously, there is a reason he is getting his own trilogy, which he HAS already begun to map out nearly FOUR years ahead of time. Lucasfilm has done nothing wrong, and all of their issues with story and directors have to do with them keeping a cohesive story. I believe J.J. Abrams did an amazing job at reintroducing us to the SW we all know and love with TFA by bringing back familiarity and giving the fans everything they had asked for. It wasn't until afterward that everyone had an issue with it. The fans asked for an original story thats different yet familiar which RJ has given. RJ has now torn down many traditional beliefs for what a SW film should be and even expanded on the force and how powerful it is...

    And if anybody dislikes or disagrees with this post, please don't take the time to dissect and critique it like a college professor. It's just my opinion.
     
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  8. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    If I'm JJ Abrams, I'm making The Force Awakens part 2 and forgetting about this movie like RJ did to his. Only the 3 big deaths need be accounted for (Snoke, Luke, and Carrie Fisher).
     
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  9. thrawn_lives

    thrawn_lives Clone Commander

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    Anakin was born from the force. His son redeemed him and defeated the empire. Leia was raised as a princess.

    So yes, Schmi was from humble origins, but Kylo the brat thinks of himself as better than others because of his history alone. He think he deserved to rule because of his bloodline.

    That is what this movie is criticizing. Bloodlines and false Nobility.
     
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  10. Paladinryan

    Paladinryan Rebel General

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    Star Wars isn't about Bloodline or Nobility--it's about FAMILY. Rey is this weird character with no connection to the other characters we know or love. TLJ made the sequel trilogy incredibly awkward and off-putting. All TLJ did was cut off the very Star Wars branch it was sitting on.

    I guess I'll have to wait for a New Republic movie for that old family struggle between brother and sister. Or maybe Abrams will right the ship.
     
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  11. Aglarion

    Aglarion Force Sensitive

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    Kylo's bloodline makes him strong in the force, it doesn't have any relevance in ruling anything, never did a Skywalker rule anything...
    Leia's royalty had absolutely no relevance to the bloodline since she was adopted and Alderan is gone.
     
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  12. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

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    JJ executive produced this, and has stated he wanted to direct the script.

    He is backing it, and the story choices Rian made. He will direct IX not TFA 2.0.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 17, 2017 ---
    Rey viewed OT people as family, Han and (tried to view) Luke as father figures and Leia as a mother.

    It’s another theme of family not needing to be biological to be true.
     
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  13. Paladinryan

    Paladinryan Rebel General

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    Except she never addresses them as father and mother. It's just a degrading attack from Kylo Ren at her.

    And yes, family doesn't need to be biological, but that's the way it's always been in the Star Wars Saga, from Episodes I-VI. If you want to explore non-biological families, make a different series. That's what the spinoffs are for.

    Rey not being a Skywalker or Solo is incredibly awkward and off-putting. It just doesn't work. Having the main character of your Skywalker Saga not be a Skywalker is dumb.
     
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  14. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

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    That’s why its the ST bro. When I said it was a theme, I meant the ST. So it’s still Star Wars because it happens in new movies. Not the old trilogies.

    Disney have bought the franchise and it seems they are ending the “skywalker needing to be a lead” perquisite.

    Unfortunately, her being revealed as a solo/skywalker would be dumb at this point, because it makes no sense. Solo has never made sense post TFA and skywalker is no longer logically possible post TLJ.

    Her being a “nobody” fits her themes and character progression. Sorry.
     
  15. Paladinryan

    Paladinryan Rebel General

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    The ST is numbered the same as the previous episodes. I.e., it should be the same as the previous episodes in terms of treating the theme of family.

    If you don't want a Skywalker to be the lead, don't use the Episode numbers. It's clearly just their ploy to make money--you have to see this movie, since it's Episode VIII!

    Bullblast. I won't be giving this film any more of my money, and I know many fans will do the same. The anticipation for IX will be a lot less, unless Abrams can reenergize these characters and the story.
     
  16. Withred

    Withred Rebel Official

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    Ok.
     
  17. patriot8813

    patriot8813 Rebel General

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    I get disappointed by the fans too. The ones that do everything in their power to complain about it, and those who give lengthy explanations as to why its great and why people should like it and disappointed some don't feel the same way.
     
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  18. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    What?
     
  19. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    What does that change if some people didn't like the movie if you did ?
     
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  20. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    Ummm, so I guess everyone just forgot about a little character named Ben Solo.
     
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