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SPECULATION Imperial Senate Dissolved due to Rogue One?

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by Rift Chasm, Aug 27, 2015.

  1. NDCAtokR

    NDCAtokR Rebelscum

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    You are stretching. Once again, the conversation you refer to is between agents of THE EMPIRE. They are not all knowing and their dialogue is an assumption of the facts as they know them. You point out in the crawl that it says the Rebels strike from "A" hidden base, not "THE" hidden base. To me there is nothing there that implies the Rebels are contained to one base in TGFFA which consists of thousands of Star Systems many of which are fighting against the Empire in many different ways. You also refer to the Rebellion as "The Alliance to Restore the Republic" which is not mentioned ONCE in ANH, sorta invalidating much of your position.

    Come on, dude. It seems like you are going to find a reason to disagree and get pissed no matter what. Fine by me, but I'm not joining you on that road.

    Look, you can get angry all you want and see it however you like. I don't see a problem with the continuity. If you want to pick it apart like that, be my guest, but my points are still quite valid.

    I am going to go on enjoying Star Wars.
     
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  2. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    It certainly could have read "from a planet", "from a spaceship" and so on, but the prologue apparently suggested one point of origin, not many (then George Lucas would have probably selected "hidden bases" and not only "a hidden base").

    This is not some EU conjecture but the exact wording chosen by George Lucas in his 4th screenplay draft from March 15, 1976 for Leia's holomessage: "General Kenobi, I present myself in the name of the royal family of Alderaan and the Alliance to restore the republic. I break your solitude at the biding of my father, Bail Antillies, Viceroy and Chairman of the Alderaan System."

    The same wording appears in the ANH novelization "by" George Lucas and thus that's obviously the full name the creator had chosen and intended. And reflects accordingly and correctly in references to the full name of the "Rebel" Alliance (Vader to Leia: "You're a part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor, take her away"). So the name "Alliance" as the name of the organization was already established in ANH.

    Nothing in the original materials indicates that George Lucas ever had "resistance cells" in mind. It's as simple as that. And eventually comes down to a matter of respect for the original materials, the original presentation and the original intentions. YMMV.

    Undoubtedly I also will still be enjoying the continuing adventures in Rebels but not as "canon" but as "legends" should they not be able or willing to merge the cells into the Alliance by the time of ANH.
     
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  3. TrooperTK-421

    TrooperTK-421 Rebel Commander

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    Maybe, just maybe, JJB is keen to atone for granting Chancellor Palpatine supreme powers and in a selfless final gesture of redemption, smuggles the Death Star information to the rebels before being discovered and horrifically terminated thus making him the saga's ultimate hero, as Lucas decreed. ;)
     
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  4. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
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    iam going to have to hang out in the rouge one threads more often now that TFA threads are getting very spooler heavy

    In playing devils advocate how about there are several cells of resistance throughout the galaxy that then come together & join forces for the attack at the death star perhaps the death star plans were leaked deliberately in the hopes of getting all the deferent cells in one place so the could be eliminated in one go

    as to the title I can defiantly see the events of Rogue 1 being used by the emperor to legitimise his disbanding of the senate & it would be nice to see the senate chamber again perhaps as the last shot of the movie tying it nicely in to ANH
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Wise choice. However, I'd hope that after New Year there'll be more fans coming to this thread, but somehow I foresee that the rumor mill for VIII will get all the attention, instead. :-(

    Okay, in the 3rd draft of Return of the Jedi (December 1, 1981) Ben not only presents his infamous "truth from another point of view" line but provides Luke with a history lesson:

    BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)
    The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster father's path, became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.


    In the 1977 "Lucas Notes" Lucas had Leia say this: “Some of the more militant systems started training military forces. The more peaceful systems, like [Alderaan], became gatherers of information”.

    We could debate whether George Lucas had a change of mind or whether he merely interpreted Alderaan as a "cell" of the body, i.e. the Rebel Alliance.

    Certainly his latest work, Revenge of the Sith provided the answer. It's in these deleted scenes ("Amidala's Story") he "reluctantly" had to trim from the film for pacing reasons and refers to these as the birth of the "Rebel Alliance":

    BAIL ORGANA: We can't sit around debating any longer, we have decided to do what we can to stop it. Senator Mon Mothma and I are putting together an organization . . .
    PADME: Say no more. Senator Organa. I understand. At this point, it's better to leave some things unsaid.


    I think we're looking at a beautiful and exceptional example of George Lucas continuity. In his 1977 notes he suggested one military and one intelligence gathering wing of the Alliance, by the time he made RotS personified by Mon Mothma (military) and Bail Organa (intelligence).

    To destroy the Alliance in ANH all the Death star needed to accomplish was to break the military backbone of the Alliance, i.e. the hidden base on Yavin IV. But I'm certain we can safely assume that all the "cells" had contact with one another, otherwise it would seem strange why Princess Leia (intelligence wing) knew the location of the military wing's hidden base (and the previous one on Dantooine, I should add).

    I also think we can approximately conclude the number of star systems that provided support to the Alliance. The Alliance founders in RotS presented Palpatine the "Petition of the 2000" Imperial Senate members that expected Palpatine to relinquish his emergency powers once the war was over.

    Among those the early supporters for the Alliance existed. Considering that 1,026 other star systems joined the Alliance after the destruction of the first Death Star according to General Willard in the early ESB script by Leigh Brackett, I'd speculate that approximately 974 systems already provided support by the time of ANH.
    The one big problem Willard indicated: "We are widely scattered and still vastly inferior in ships and men."

    In a nutshell: The Alliance hadn't a problem consisting of so many cells not knowing of each other but the problem to establish an efficient infrastructure to bring all these different supporters or cells together and orchestrate their movement as a whole.
     
    #25 Lt. Hija, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
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  6. ZebroGodilla

    ZebroGodilla Darklighter Ace

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    I'd have to say by the time of ANH, around 75 to 90 percent of the Rebellion has merged into a single cell. Commando and specialized units would slowly merge in, like the crew that infiltrated the Endor Base. By ROTJ, Hidalgo said they have fully merged. The way I see it, once Fulcrum, Ahsoka, mentioned the protocol changed around 5 years before ANH. That's enough time to almost merge, and in a few more years, fully merge.
     
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  7. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    ^^ Now that sounds somewhat different, do you by any chance have Hidalgo's exact quote or a link to the source?!?

    According to this statement, there is no unified command by the time of ANH and ESB!
     
  8. ZebroGodilla

    ZebroGodilla Darklighter Ace

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    Lemme try to find it.
     
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  9. Lord Ruzetrn

    Lord Ruzetrn Clone

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    Okay after reading this thread, and trying to make sense of Wookiepedia, I am trying to piece together a couple things. The Imperial Senate was dissolved during the events of ANH, just prior to the Battle of Yavin? If I recall correctly there is a line in the film where Tarkin is asked about how the empire will maintain control of the many systems without the senate and he responds that Tarkin responds that fear will keep them subdued. I probably should know this but do we have a definite time period for Rogue One, such as the film's ending quite literally leading right into ANH? I would think that if the film really ended right before ANH than it is likely that the events of Rogue One played a part in the dissolution of the Imperial Senate. Of course than that begs the question of why would Palpatine a) allow the Imperial Senate to exist when he already had supreme power unless I guess if it was simply to distract the senators from what was actually taking place under the emperor and when they started to rebell against him the game of cat and mouse became pointless in this way. B) Why would senators who were rebel sympathizers even bother with a pointless beauracracy in the senate that held no real power against the empire, was there really an advantage to being senator because you would think the emperor would only allow you to hear what he wanted you to?
     
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  10. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    IMHO, the answer of General Taggi, commader-in-chief of the Imperial Starfleet, made that clear: “That’s impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy (provided by the Imperial Senate)?”

    It seems that the Imperial Senate might have resembled the Senate of the Roman Empire and Julius Caesar. Backed by memories of a civil war in 82 BC, Caesar let himself be appointed as dictator (which after his death eventually evolved into the title of emperor). “First, he wanted to suppress all armed resistance out in the provinces, and thus bring order back to the Republic. Second, he wanted to create a strong central government in Rome. And finally, he wanted to knit together the entire Republic into a single cohesive unit.”
    “While the Roman assemblies continued to meet after the founding of the empire, their powers were all transferred to the senate, and so senatorial decrees (senatus consulta) acquired the full force of law. The legislative powers of the imperial senate were principally of a financial and an administrative nature, although the senate did retain a range of powers over the provinces.” (both quotes from Wikipedia).
    Moreover, why were so many Imperial officers so concerned about the Imperial Senate and its reactions in ANH?

    Leia: “The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this, when they hear you’ve attacked a diplomatic…(ship)”
    Vader’s aide: “Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out, it could generate sympathy for the Rebellion in the senate.”
    Vader: “There’ll be no one (in the senate?) to stop us this time.”
    General Taggi: “The Rebellion will continue to gain a support in the Imperial Senate as long as…”

    Undoubtedly, the rise and first military victory of the Alliance could have called for additional funding of the Empire’s ‘national’ guard and/or security service, yet depending on the consent of the Imperial Senate.
    Despite being a shadow of its former self, Imperial senators sympathetic and (secretly) supportive of the Alliance could have simply denied their consent to allocate additional funding to these organizations, especially once they learned that the diplomatic immunity of one of their colleagues (Senator Organa) had been severely violated by aforementioned organizations, hence the vocal concerns of Vader’s aide aboard the Devastator (and General Taggi aboard the Death Star).
     
    #30 Lt. Hija, Dec 4, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
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  11. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Lt. Hija, you make some very good points, and it's something that I've been noticing too.

    I've just finished reading "Twilight Company" (should have a belated review up on the blog here soon) and as much as I dug the book, I didn't buy how massive and organized we're supposed to suddenly believe that the Rebellion was by the time of ESB. To the point where there's even the beginnings of the classic rivalry between infantry and naval companies that we've seen in militaries throughout history.

    I agree with you 100%. In ANH, the Rebel base on Yavin IV was basically the entire Rebel military (with a network of people like Bail Organa providing intel, of course.) By ESB, this would have expanded somewhat, but I still never got the impression that the Rebellion had some extensive, organized navy, army, etc. Hell, look how easily they handed out ranks in the movies!

    I feel like they're getting a bit too far afield of the OT idea of the Rebellion as a ragtag yet thoroughly dedicated band of freedom fighters, and trying to turn them into a large established military.
     
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  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Thanks for sharing my concerns. Previously I must have been blind, because already in an earlier post NDCAtokR mentioned the source. It's Rebels Recon for the second season episode Wings of the Master and in the context of why we have A-Wings and B-Wings that early. Here is the exact transcript what Pablo Hidalgo had to say:

    "The rebellion that we see in Episode IV - we're just hanging out with General Dodonna's group - don't have those ships. By the time we get to Return of the Jedi we've assembled the rebellion, the Rebel fleet all in one place to strike against the Death Star. So the groups that have the A-Wings and the B-Wings and the ships we haven't seen before bring those to the table."

    That's essentially compatible with what NDCAtokR summed up earlier and I don't know whether I'm supposed to laugh or cry.

    Well, apparently those that joined the Alliance after the destruction of the first Death Star brought those ships to the table. A simple explanation that also has the benefit that it doesn't contradict the statemets of the protagonists in ANH.

    And does Pablo know about General Willard and his function in the Alliance?

    Sounds like this should belong into a Rebels thread but since the Lucasfilm Story Group is supposed to bring balance to canon and continuity, expect this revision to come to full fruitation in Rogue One, too.
     
    #32 Lt. Hija, Dec 4, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
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  13. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
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    I don't know what to think now as I get that it was one group of rebels we were seeing in ANH but I thought that we were seeing the main cell of the resistance and these had the best ships (as it was the Ackbar that brought they heavy capital ships & A & B wing to the party) but with rebels implying that the B wing was a lot older than I though it was then why didn't the main cell of the resistance which I still think it was in ANH have them & what where they doing instead. Hopefully Rouge One will clear this up or at least not make it even more confusing that it appears to be getting.
     
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    The basic fact that we are looking at a major retcon notwithstanding there are multiple answers:
    • The radio drama established that the X- and Y-Wing were designs already 20 years old by the time of ANH, while the B-Wing in comparison is still new and probably difficult to handle for rookies
    • Given the obvious dominance of the X-Wing in the OT it appears to be a widespread and reliable design most pilots in the galaxy are familiar with, especially those that flew Bestinian T-16 Skyhoppers before...
    • The one thing both ANH novelization and radio drama made clear, was the Alliance's shortage of pilots in ANH (as an analogy think of the pilots that flew for the RAF during the Battle of Britain, one of the war movie inspirations BTW). To train volunteers on new fighters most might not be familiar with - in contrast to the X- and Y-Wing - is a logistical nightmare.
    • The ANH Sketchbook / Joe Johnston suggested that the Alliance was not that well off financially and got the X- and Y-Wings for a considerable discount.
    • A- and B-Wings were on a different mission when Princess Leia and company unexpectedly arrived on Yavin IV, followed by the Death Star. Quite possible that the pilots we saw running to Luke upon his triumphant return and participating at the medal ceremony had just piloted A- and B-Wings
    I think the above rationalizations illustrate that there was no reason to come up with this Yavin-IV-was-only-a-cell nonsense to rationalize A- and B-Wings prior to ANH.
     
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  15. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I always thought that Yabin IV was the headquarters of The Rebel Alliance...
     
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  16. NDCAtokR

    NDCAtokR Rebelscum

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    To this point, I don't feel like these two groups interact with each other until after ANH. That's why Hera and crew were nowhere to be found during ANH, and they will likely not show up in R1, either.
     
  17. ZebroGodilla

    ZebroGodilla Darklighter Ace

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    @Lt. Hija, I get what you're saying, but here's what I see. Let's take the X-Wing. By the end of the ROTS, the ARC-170 Heavy Fighter and the Z-95 Headhunters were in heavy use. After, we have 19 years before ANH. So we have the X-Wing come up at the very start of the Imperial days as a bit of a clunky misstep of the Z-95 creators, who only sell the initial batch, albeit a large one as the Z-95 was very favored and they expected the same here. By ANH, it's an older but common ship, that the Rebellion managed to understand well enough to make use of its best features, and amplify enough to make it its main star-fighter. As for the Rebellion in ANH, I think Pablo made a misstep when addressing it as to not give away too many spoilers. I am very confident it is the biggest rebel cell by ANH, and the one in Rebels is just the oldest. I expect the Rebels one to have gone on such a remarkable mission or something that all lives were lost and it was destroyed and forcefully wiped away, as these characters may not fit into the OT, being as they are force users Luke could have contacted and should have known about. So after it's wiped out, the last and biggest cell is the Yavin one, which is now Central. Also, I figure this cell has the Encom produce X-Wings secretly, so it's also their main and only supplier. Old Y-Wings are easy to find because they are so outdated, coming in at the beginning of the Clone Wars. I would say your explanation for the A-Wings and B-Wings are fine, but I would also note that all of their designs are so radically different, that they would have had to be made by other companies, like in the Clone Wars for both the Republic and Separatists. Difference is, the Rebellion has to do their stuff discreetly, so their companies couldn't all send the ships to one group, which is how I think it all make sense about what Hidalgo's statement meant, if expanded on.
     
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  18. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Yeah, that's what I've been trying to say ! It happens DURING ANH. Now in regards to the actual senate, I'd love to see how it operated after the events of ROTS out of sheer curiosity .
     
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  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    Yes, the dialogue and the actions of the lead characters did suggest this abundantly. Leia and company are greeted by General Willard (says cast credit, played by Eddie Byrne who was scheduled to resume his role for The Empire Strikes Back), the commander (-in-chief) of the Rebel forces.

    It's rather obvious that many pilots were not at the Yavin base upon Leia's and the Death Star's Arrival. First you have three "unknowns" that welcome Luke upon his arrival and then the sheer mass of pilots participating at the medal ceremony:

    Rebel pilots at medal ceremony.jpg

    Obviously they were on a mission elsewhere, probably flying A- and B-Wings and couldn't be recalled in time to participate in the Death Star attack.

    X- and Y-Wings were left at the base so that new volunteers could fly these ASAP, assuming most able pilots were familiar with their controls.

    Therefore, from Feloni's ad Hidalgo's point of view, you can have cake and eat it, too (A-Wings and B-Wings already in ANH), without resorting to this stupid "General Dodonna's cell" (wouldn't that be rather General Willard's cell...?) theory that creates a continuity conflict and canon error.

    @Astromech Records

    see my post # 30 above. This may not be the only explanation how the Imperial Senate actually functioned after RotS, but that's the best rationalization I came up with that seemed compliant with the actual ANH onscreen explanation we got.
     
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  20. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Remember, "unknowns" to us .
     
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