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In JJ we trust....

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Darth Cylon, Jul 7, 2018.

  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think the style and story are 2 different things. I also like JJ's style as it harkens back to the 1977 SW. TFA was loaded with mystery boxes and that was fine in 2015, but I always said that the movie would fall like a house of cards if there wasn't a payoff in Episode 8 and 9. So I guess my point is that I still enjoy TFA in terms of execution, but I have soured on the movie now because it doesn't jive with TLJ, IMO. And I worry that Episode 9 will subert what has been subverted in TLJ, and it will look ridiculous as a Trilogy Narrative.
     
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  2. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Not hating on JJ but can he "end" something.





    Then again.........








    I want Episode X.
     
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  3. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I'm not sure that, at this point, this is fair. He is co-writing the script. This isn't Rian Johnson doing the entire thing on his own.

    Personally I think it's better to have a co-writter, someone to say perhaps you shouldn't do this or that. I think Rian could have used that sort of help and I also think George needed some people around during the PT to say, "uh yeah, that's not a good idea."

    I really enjoyed the Force Awakens. I'm not going to say it was great (I think that term is too often thrown about). It was fun. It asked questions that I hoped would be answered in 8 and 9 in a satisfying way. So far I'm not satisfied with the answers provided in 8. Hopefully 9 can fit that. I'm willing to give him a chance.
     
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  4. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    JJ is good at setting up characters and mystery boxes but he doesn't seem to be really good at bringing stories to a satisfying end. RJ has also destroyed/ignored most of JJ's setups like Snoke or the Knights of Ren so even though JJ is a good filmmaker I will wait for reviews for IX before I buy my tickets in December 2019.
     
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  5. Darth Cylon

    Darth Cylon Rebel General

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    Knights of Ren had no place in TLJ. They will in IX. I think the hype for them will sell the film.
     
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  6. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel Official

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    JJ, Rian, and the whole story group should have sat down and planned this trilogy before-hand. Quite a few things JJ made important in VII turned out to be not so important at all in VIII. Examples:
    1) Snoke, who died even before audiences understood how he corrupted Kylo Ren. Was it brainwashing? Mind-control? Torture?
    2) Knights of Ren (still don’t know what Kylo Ren’s last name has in common with these knights. Did he start the club or join the club? Not sure.)
    3) Lightsaber visions. The laser sword “called” to Rey, but then never called again.
    4) Maz Kanada. She seemed like she was going to be this trilogy’s yoda. She didn’t have much importance in VIII.
     
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  7. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    If they had been in VIII you'd argue that RJ would have been mad to not include them in TLJ. You act as if they screenplay couldn't have been written in a way to make room for them. They could have taken the place of the praetorians for example or showed up in a plotline that replaces Anch-To. To say that had no place in TLJ is ridiculous.
     
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  8. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    The idea that Rian ignored JJ's setups requires ignoring scenes in TFA.

    Fans failing to pick up on JJ's clues are not Rian's failing to follow through on JJ's set ups.

    Fan hopes and theories lingered even against clues in TFA and then they were mad at TLJ

    1- Maz point blank says Rey's family is not coming back. This was a clear signal. Her belonging, the identity she is seeking isn't the family who left its in rising to the call of the Force. Its finding Luke. But because everyone assumed she was Luke's daughter they ignored the clue and were angry she was random.

    2- Reylo as in these to will fall in love and live happily ever after was never a thing. But the two of them being connected but going their separate ways was. Rian didn't screw Reylo up it is exactly what it was supposed to be. What Rian did with Rey and Kylo built clearly right on top of the complexity JJ laid down.

    People's expectations and seeing false clues to those expectations still haven't reconciled that JJ hinted at many of the things Rian followed through on. But people are hung up on Obi-Wan's voice means she must have been a Kenobi. She dresses like Luke and Anakin she must be a Skywalker. So much so they ignore or overlook clear moments when those options were taken off the Table by JJ. Look at the interviews with Ridley where she was amazed people still wondered if Luke was her dad.
     
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  9. dudebrohomie

    dudebrohomie Rebel Official

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    I'm an Abrams fan.....of most of his stuff, not only SW. So maybe I'm biased, but I think he will do fine. It's a movie, after all.

    1. Can't recast Leia: Well.....Fisher is gone....so......
    2. Can't just have her die offscreen: Well.....Fisher is gone.....so.....
    3. Need to see her story arc to the end: Well.....Fisher is gone.....so......
    4. Can't do CGI..Can't do it!: Well.....Fisher is.....(you get the idea...)
    THIS is where the fandom will just have to get over it in some fashion. Fisher is gone, so if you think Fisher = Leia, you will be disappointed no matter how they handle it.

    Abrams and co will do the best they can, and I'm sure I'll be satisfied with the results, but there are those who think 9 is a lost cause to begin with. I'm just not line up with 'em.

    DBH, OUT!!!!
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 12, 2018 ---
    He also does lens flares. Don't forget that. Or are we.....the fandom....over lens flares. (Apparently to some, lens flares hurt their eyes, or something? All I know is, it was a thing)

    If so, would someone please text me so I can quit harping on it. The lens flares. There were lens flares.
     
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  10. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Agreed, and that's what I'm afraid of.

    The problem for me is that I prefer all the other latest SW movies over TFA. I'm the kind of guy that likes resolve and more simple and linear stories. Yeah, I guess I'm out of luck with JJ. The thing is, I think he did a wonderful job in Star Trek 2009. But that mystery box... man, I can't enjoy all those lose ends and having more questions than answers at the end.

    So, I hope JJ can keep that mystery box at home this time, and focus on providing a great spectacle, a good story, a few surprises and resolve above all else. Here's hoping for a kind of ending like in Return of the Jedi for IX.
     
    #30 greenbalrog, Jul 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  11. Darth Cylon

    Darth Cylon Rebel General

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    They had no place in the story we were given. If they were Snoke's guards they'd all be dead now. Fans thinking of ways they could have been worked into the film are different then the actual films themselves. Just because they could have been in TLJ doesn't mean they had to. That's why there are multiple what if the prequels were good retellings on YouTube. For the story Rian was telling they were not necessary. I personally did not miss them at all in TLJ. For me, I feel like they are ultimately going to be the Jabba the Hutt's of the ST but way more significant to the overall plot of IX then Jabba was in Jedi.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 13, 2018 ---
    The only thing I really agree with here is Maz. For me, her one scene was my biggest disappointment in TLJ to this day. She'sone of my favorite new characters and I was even hoping for her to have been in Solo but that never happened and now I think the chance to get another Solo film to fill in the backstory between Han and Maz may be lost. But there's always the comics and the books.

    Other then that, Snoke was important for Kylo's rise to power and we never really needed to have that flat out explained to us in the films. I'm sure we will get more stuff fleshed out in future canon material because that's what in my opinion Star Wars does best. Set it up, flesh it out later so the story can progress.

    It would have been nice learn more about the Knights of Ren but we still don't have the whole trilogy and I'm sure we will get more about them in IX. JJ did say that he wanted to make a Knights of Ren film so now is his chance to bring them into the spotlight in IX. So far all we really have to know is that most of the current Knights of Ren joined Kylo when he destroyed Luke's Jedi Temple. There's a lot of story potential here again to be given to us in a future animated show or comic, or maybe even IX. But even so, if IX doesn't give us all the answers, I know we'll get them eventually.

    I don't think the lightsaber had to call to her again since she was in possession of it after TFA.

    This is just how I feel on this stuff though. I don't really care when things are not explained immediately because I feel like as fans we've already been trained to go out of our way for the expanded universe type knowledge. The creation of the clone army was one of those mysteries set up in AOTC that I thought would be answered in ROTS but it wasn't because it wasn't important to the actual event occurring in that film. It wan't until SW:CW S6 that we actually got those answers.
     
  12. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I think the overwhelming majority of the fandom will give them a pass for this particular situation, which we all know involves circumstances beyond their control.
     
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  13. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
    - from Gurlyand's Reminiscences of A. P. Chekhov, in Teatr i iskusstvo 1904, No. 28, 11 July, p. 521

    Sadly, Rian doesn't seem to care about this "rule" called "Chekhov's gun" or he deliberately ignored it and as a result we have people wondering about the whole point of Snoke, the Forceback, the Knights of Ren, the importance of Anakin's lightsaber and how it came into the posession of Maz, etc... There's a reason why you should follow certain guidelines and even though the violation of said guidelines might result in unexpected twists and turns it doesn't mean they make the movie better. Much of the criticism TLJ was facing upon it's relase was due to it feeling disjointed from TFA which made it feel finale rather than a sequel.

    If the Knights of Ren had been introduced in VIII I would have no problem with this but the OT equivalent to this would be to introduce Boba Fett in ANH, ignore him in ESB and bring him back in ROTJ. It's not clever screenwriting, it's a symptom of a production made up on the fly without a general direction or guideline to follow.
     
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  14. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I would argue that some of these story elements were not important to be followed up on. Especially Maz and the lightsaber.

    How Maz got the lightsaber was in the original script and got cut out when JJ changed the Forceback. The story for another time comment was a throw away line to be dismissive of the importance of how she got it. Rey’s calling by the Force was what’s important. The lightsaber was just the tool. If RJ would have gotten into explaining how Maz got the saber, when JJ didn’t think it was important in his movie, it would have taken away from more important story elements in TLJ.

    The Forceback is a mess. Once again this is from changes JJ made at some point last minute to the script. As noted above this was going to explain the path the lightsaber took from after Luke lost it to when Maz got possession of it. When JJ decided against it, it seems to me that he liked the idea of the Forceback so he did not want to scrap it completely. What he created was something equivalent to a Force induced acid trip. It was quick, and confusing. From a TFA story telling standpoint it was meant to scare Rey and give her a vehicle to initially refuse the call to the hero’s journey. Some of the Forceback was explained in TFA, Kylo in the snow, and RJ did explain the image of Luke, R2 and the fire. I will get into the Knights of Ren below but the shot of Kylo and them standing over dead bodies was to signify the evil of Kylo. After TLJ and knowing that some students left with Ben this shot can be a representation of what they have become. The one area of the Forceback I think ignored by RJ was the shot of young Rey. I believe that it was meant to represent that her parents were not coming back as Maz explains. While RJ kept to the idea of them not coming back he did take it in a different direction.

    The Knights of Ren is definitely a fan favorite for wanting to know more information that is for sure. I would like to know more. Was it written into TFA to expounded on? Not sure. It was 1 line Ione in the movie. I believe it was meant to show that Kylo is not a Sith but something different. I don’t think JJ initially intended for much detail to go into it in this trilogy. His comment about a KOR story being what he would like to tell if he did a SW story points to this. That being said RJ did not close any doors on the KOR in TLJ so if JJ thinks they are ultra important he has had the opportunity to write them in IX. I guess we will see how important he thinks the KOR are.

    Snoke. While I am fine with the way Snoke was handled in TLJ, I do understand how others may want more. I’m sure we will get Snoke in other canon materials down the line, I can see how some are disappointed or upset that we did not get more in TLJ.
     
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  15. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    I was pretty sure, when watching TLJ, that Luke's submerged X-wing was a "Chekov's gun".
    When Rey left in the falcon, I thought we'd get Luke lifting his X-wing up from the water and joining his sister, but...
    sometimes a "Chekov's gun" turns out to be a red herring.
     
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  16. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I think the submerged X-Wing was a sign that Luke never intended to leave Ach-to. Now I did hold out hope that he would be convinced by Rey to return but given the amount of time the X-wing was underwater I never expected him to leave in it. I figured he leave with Rey and Chewie in the Falcon
     
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  17. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel Official

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    I have faith that JJ can bring us a satisfying conclusion to the ST and the saga as a whole. Then again, I really like TFA and TLJ. Neither is perfect, but no SW movie is. I am happy to go along with the portions that I like, which is really the vast majority of the movies, and not get hung up on the few details I don't like.

    I have no idea where IX is going to go, and I hope I don't find out before I am sitting in the theater. I think we still don't know what this trilogy is actually about, and I do not say that as a criticism. It is the third act that really defines each of the trilogies thus far. It is easy for us to watch the OT now and know it is about Vader's redemption, or to watch the PT and know it is about Anakin's fall, but if you knew nothing about SW and was watching these movies for the first time, you would not know these things until the third movie of each respective trilogy. In the PT, you would know that Anakin was a moody, troubled person, but you would not know he was going to become a Sith lord by watching the first or second movie. You would probably be wondering if he would turn to the dark side, but you would not know. Same for the OT. With fresh eyes, you would not know at the end of ESB that Vader would be redeemed - there was no sign of it. You would wonder if Luke would fall to the dark side, but you would not know anything. In this way, the third movie of each trilogy is the one that defines what the trilogy is about. Today, a lot of people are wondering if Kylo will be redeemed, or will stay dark. Perhaps IX defines this trilogy as the story of Ben Solo being consumed by the dark side. Perhaps IX defines this trilogy as the story of Ben Solo being manipulated and pulled to the dark side, but ultimately choosing for himself to come back to the light. Maybe IX will define the trilogy as something else. We will not know until we see IX, and I like that this is still unknown.

    Also, as for TLJ feeling like it is the end of a trilogy instead of a middle chapter, part of why it feels like that is because TLJ did not end on a cliffhanger like ESB did. But then AOTC did not end on a cliffhanger either. We all looked forward to Episode III because we knew going in that Anakin was going to fall to the dark side, not because we wanted to see how the cliffhanger of Episode II was resolved. We are in a similar position now. We just don't know what the outcome of IX is going to be heading into it.
     
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  18. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    This entire movie was a big red fish. But hey we need to subvert those expectations right!
     
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  19. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Okay, breathe... Just breathe...
     
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  20. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    It's not the movies fault if your theories weren't right.
     
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