Insulted by last Jedi? Does Disney deserve anymore of your money after this?

Thank you. Yes. Did they have to knock off all three though? Then they teased at killing Chewbacca and c3po off. Just tough to watch I suppose.

 

Well I am a 57 yr old guy who was 12 when I saw ANH in the theaters in 77. I guess I have really never had that strong a bond to Luke, Leia and Han, as characters in a movie universe.

And I was referring to Harrison Ford, a noted curmudgeon related to Star Wars, who stated before ESB that he wanted Han to die in Ep 5.....

 

There are worse fates for Han Solo than dying. They could bring him back as another kylovision, or de-age him for disney+ for another Star Wars Chewbacca Christmas special.

 

If Fast and Furious and more recently, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever have taught me anything, it's that when a key actor or actress passes away, there is always a choice about what to do. Use the footage for a different role, have her off-screen on a mission, recast the role to finish the character...all of these and more were options that were considered and could have been done. Carrie didn't have to die in the film, but JJ and Terrio decided to kill her for emotional impact. It's not a bad decision, but when coupled with Han's death and Luke's death, it understandably leaves a bad taste is some fans' mouths.

 

At the end of TLJ, it looked like Leia was going to die and Luke was going to live, thanks to Luke's illusion. But then Luke died and Leia lived. It would have been super easy to re-edit TLJ so that Luke lives and Leia dies, and quite frankly this might have even been a better ending. Then Luke could have filled in most of the role Leia would have had in IX.

I understand that at the time they were reluctant to change TLJ because it would seem like monkeying with Carrie's final appearance, but since TROS ultimately consisted entirely of "monkeying" with her, I think that this would have been the better option in the long run.

 

After more time to contemplate Star Wars overall as mythology, I think I understand that it was important for the story for them to die, and maybe something that Lucas himself would choose. I think Leia would have died in the script even if nothing tragic happened irl. But inside, part of me imagines a corporate executive setting up 3 action figures on the back of his yacht, saying, "I own you now!" and picking them off one-by-one with his Glock.

 

It very well could have been. I wish I knew too, but that's one of those things we'll probably never be privy to. It just always feels so...bitter for the character. Her life's work is destroyed, her husband dies, she dies, and then her son dies. The good guys winning viewed through those lenses is a far more esoteric victory, if it's one that can be counted on at all. But that's part of JJ's problem of focusing on the story and not the world IMO.

I understand a reasoning behind that as well, but with so little left to build from in-world, and how recursive TROS is, their deaths don't leave me assured that anything will change for the better. If the reason behind the deaths is to make room for something different or better - to pass the torch - then that torch needs to be lit and set up well. Leia's work wasn't just the Resistance or the Rebellion, but the idea of the Republic, and her death and Poe's lack of an arc relating to it don't leave me assured in the way that her death is supposed to be.

That got an audible laugh from me, and now I can't unsee it.

 

What I find both surprising and interesting is that ESB wasn't all that well received by fans, now it's seen as the best of all of them.
Regarding the OT characters' deaths....I would have much preferred it if Han had died saving Kylo, rather than at his hand. Luke could always return as a FG and train Rey..or Kylo could have become Ben Solo much earlier in TROS and trained her...now that would have been controversial!

Regarding Carrie's sad and untimely death, @SegNerd has a point regarding having Leia die at the end of TLJ; I actually loathed what they did with her in TROS, and I would have liked it if instead they had used the deleted scenes and made them into a hologram message Leia sent to Ben...then they could have had a mother/son reunion after all.
Wandered off topic again, sorry!

 

Rey entered world beyond worlds under Ach-Too. She created multiple dimensions by accident because she was very powerful but untrained and very unbalanced.. TLJ was just one of the dimensions. In others, Luke lives and Rey is Sith =).

 

I would actually like to see some 'what if' comic books showing alternate versions of the story, like Marvel used to do years ago.

There's one thing I have to say here...I actually wished Rey had taken Ben's hand at the end of TLJ. Not to make her 'go dark', but because she believed she could use her influence on him for good. It would have been an astonishing twist, especially after how Luke turned down Vader's offer in ESB, and paved the way for a far less predictable chapter 9.

 

This would have required that Disney delay the film. JJ pitched his story right when TLJ came out so I guess in hindsight this could have worked. I can understand Disney not delaying TLJ since it was a complete movie, but not delaying TROS further was a huge mistake.

 

A couple brief — and slightly OT — takes…

ESB was both a HUGE critical and commercial success from the get-go. From Day 1, SW fans have always lovingly embraced the film. The ONLY criticism of any merit that the film received from fans wasn’t about Luke’s heritage, it was that it ended on a cliff hanger.

I loved JJ’s introduction to the ST with the exception of the ‘reboot’ feeling it created. However, (IMHO) all JJ’s set-up work came crashing down in TLJ.

But after seeing what Favreau and Filoni have done with the GFFA, it’s crystal clear to me now what a difference the story relling is when it’s firmly grounded in the SW world.

 

Commercially you're absolutely right. I looked at the numbers just to double-check, and it was the highest-grossing movie of 1980! Critical success...it seems to be mixed from what I can tell, and one of those movies that is critically vindicated in time. Just going to the standard Wiki page links reviews from the time that were very critical of the tone, acting, and story. (YMMV on whether or not that means anything, or whether or not critics mean anything. I have no horse in this race, and I'm not going to start betting now!) Not a debate or point of contention, just a point of clarification.

Because JJ wanted to look backwards at what was done and set up questions he never intended on answering. His set-up work was the reboot feeling: No more major politics (we blow up the planets where the Republic rules from), Leia is back to leading a Resistance front and Han is back to smuggling (break up their marriage in order for this to happen), Luke is the solitary Jedi (destroy all of his work), and have a Solo/Skywalker on the Dark Side in Kylo Ren (which really didn't need to be the case, but is more dramatic that way). It's all like some adult has gained the power to recreate their childhood and doesn't care that they're effectively destroying their childhood to do so.*
RJ just revealed how shallow of a facade it all was. TLJ doesn't want us to look to the past, but forge our own path, through failure and pain and growth and whatever else it takes us to do so. It's not about destroying what came before (aka JJ "I wanted to put Jar Jar's bones in the desert of Jakku and blow up Coruscant") or putting it on a pedestal to be honored in-perpetuity, but dealing with the fact that they are flawed, and we can do better. That's the core reason of why I love TLJ's story, because in many ways it does throw out fans' expectations about what Star Wars needs or should be in order to progress. It's almost irreverent in the way it handles things, but through that handling you see the true reverence of the creator.
Rey isn't a Nobody to spite fans, but it's not who she's related to that needs to define her, but what she chooses to do and what she stands for. (TROS tries to carry this theme though and while adding on "It's not your relationship to your family that defines you," but the previous movies had that pretty well set up with Kylo/Ben. It's just that JJ and Terrio didn't want to use that set up.)

In the same vein, Snoke and Luke dying, and Leia symbolically dying is the symbol of the next generation stepping into their shoes. And how they do it not only reveals their nature, but how successful they were as teachers, in a way:
Snoke - Brutally killed by his apprentice, who is strong, but not ready to lead.
Luke - Sacrifices himself for his apprentice, but there is no sorrow over this action. His apprentice is unsure of herself, but she has support.
Leia - Subtlety gives command over to her apprentice, indicating he is ready, but she is still there to support him when needed.

JJ brought in themes of legacy and nostalgia. RJ decided to deconstruction the ideas of wild adventures, legacy, and nostalgia by showing their logical conclusions in the modern era. But he also brough in themes of hope and freedom as well.


*Not that I blame JJ. If I had the chance to bring my childhood in the form of Marvel/DC Crossovers to the big - or even little - screen, I'd take it in a heartbeat, even if that means rebooting the entire MCU. Then again, I'd probably just say that this takes place in an alternate universe and let the MCU do its thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2022 ---

I'm glad this is the case for you! World and story working together is a wonderful thing. I feel as if TLJ did this, in most places, by bringing in the history of the GFFA and the ramifications of TFA. But it's okay if you feel that Filoni and Faverau are the first to do it, or the best to do it.

 

I’m glad that you and a handful of others are into Rian Johnson’s film. I think it was a bad film that was horribly disrespectful to the OT character of Luke Skywalker and ruined any chance of Rey continuing the Skywalker legacy. And when it comes to Johnson’s world-building…space “bombers”? Really?

I posted here primarily to clarify the notion that ESB was somehow a critical mixed bag. It was not. You can always find bad reviews anywhere but if Rotten Tomatoes had existed back in 1980, trust me, ESB’s rating would have been in the 90s.

 

I mean, even the Star Wars website in 2014 talked about the original response of the movie, so I don't think it was as brilliantly received as we like to imagine...
https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

Harkening back to the OT's dogfights and WW2 heritage. Not to mention that we've had sound in space for decades with Star Wars, so what's a little fun with bombers?
Although for science purposes, I think I may be able to justify it - every ship has internal gravity, so the bombs are "falling" in the internal gravity and then using that momentum to "fall" on the ships below them. It's not that there's space gravity in this particular fight (though there are some arcs from cannons later in the movie IIRC), just one ship using its gravity to deliver a payload.

TROS helped you out on that, but why did REY have to carry on the legacy. Call me crazy (which I probably am ), but I saw just as many thematic hints for Finn being related to Luke as I did for Rey. Rey could have carried on Luke's spiritual legacy like Poe did for Leia.

 

In 2014? You do realize that was 34 years after the film’s initial release, right?

 

I'm aware. The article was using the 34th anniversary of ESB to look back and see how time has vindicated the movie. Read it. It goes through praise, mixed feelings, and dislikes all to show that ESB isn't always what we remember it being. The opening paragraph is literally:

It then goes through articles and quotes, show what reviewers thought at the time and giving us commentary on their potential context. So yeah, critically, ESB wasn't always as loved as it is. But time changed that. That's the main point I wanted to make. Commercially, you were 100% right, it did amazing numbers at the box office. Again, not an argument or condemnation, just a quick clarification.

 

Oof, now I'm worried we'll be having this talk about TLJ 34 years later, too.

Sure feels like that, already.