Is Ben Redeemable?

@Moral Hazard I used the verb "to manipulate" about Kylo, because that is the same verb Snoke used.
The idea is... using someone else weakness to get from him/her what you need/want.

And in all honesty... to me that is different than to offer a person a way out.
Especially because Rey genually believes that is Ben/Kylo's future, given the vision she had.

Kylo's vision is not about them joing force, or fighting together the guards.
He saw something else: her parents. Because of that "because of what I saw... I saw who your parents are"
he thinks he can convince her to join him.
Not only, he offers Rey a position of power. The same thing Snoke did with Hux.
" You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power?
A cur'sweakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool"

In this sense, Kylo will trying to use Rey's weakness (and he knows that is her weakness) "as a
sharp tool" so that she will turn and accept the position of power he's offering her.

But... as said, many things are still open to debate, imo.

 

he believes the same exact thing.

just because he's wrong to us doesn't mean he doesn't genuinely believe that his future (as seen in their shared vision) is absolutely right.

 

I don't get it sorry.
What do you think he saw?

 

the same thing she did: the two of them standing together, united.

she says he will turn. he says she will turn.
they saw the same thing, only each thinks the other is going to their side.

it's all in the elevator scene.

 

I don't think so.
Or at least I don't think is a given:

KYLO: I saw something too. Because of what I saw I know that when the moment comes
you’ll be the one to turn. You’ll stand with me.
Rey, I saw who your parents are.

He saw for sure her parents.
That is out of question. I think we all can agree.

But that he saw them fighting together is not sure at all.
He doesn't say that crystal clear.

What he says is "because of what I saw" (your parents) I know (=believe?) you will turn.

So to me it's just that given what he saw (and given that he knows that is her weakness, as he said before in the force-skype-call)
he believes that he can "use" that info so that she will to turn (because of of that... you'll be the one to turn).
To me, it's more a cause/effect situation than explaining all the vision he had.

But sure, this is open to debate.

 

true, it's actually less certain on both their sides since she only says "you will not kneel, you'll turn".
maybe i should have said they have the same aspiration, not vision (not in the literal sense).

she believes that his refusal to kneel for Snoke means he'll come to the Light.
he believes that the truth about her origins will make her only too happy to take his hand.

the point remains, however, that they're both foolish and they're both wrong.

they saw what they wanted to see.

 

Re: your last point above--agreed that both Rey and Ben's goals were really more about getting the other to do what they wanted than anything purely selfless. I don't think you can call getting someone to do what you want by invoking emotions "manipulation" every time. Then 3/4 of Star Wars, including the conversations of the "good guys" with each other, is "manipulation." But I think Rey and Ben's mutual clouded motivations are why IMO the lightsaber didn't go to Rey as it did in TFA but instead shattered between them.

And also, it frustrates me to no end when Rey's agency, motives, and independence--she's the hero, not a victim!--are glossed over (or worse, sanctified) in favor of Ben's (I mean in general SW discussions, not by you in particular, @Moral Hazard! ). I realize this is partly because Rey plays her cards so close to her chest and doesn't reveal much to anyone and the audience has to infer a lot of it. But I won't rant about it now. I've save that little treat for another time.

Joking about slow Skywalker drama queens aside (just for a while--I promise to make fun of them again in the future), there is an interesting parallel or contrast with Luke and Ren and their ideas of power. Luke has more of a passive or "negative" reaction to the power of the Force and its misuse, while Ben has a similar reaction, but in an aggressive or "positive" reaction to the power of the Force and its misuse. Both are extremes.

When Luke finds that the Force/power has been "misused" in his own life when he couldn't be the perfect Jedi and mentor, his reaction is extreme: he forswears its use and hides himself away, vowing to die before that kind of power will ever be misused again on his watch. Then, when he fears that Rey will indeed use her power for ill when she leaves the island, his next move is to utterly destroy what's left of the Jedi religion, the Jedi texts (and I don't want to know what he thought he was getting rid of after that). He's going to "burn it all down" so that everything that has ever caused him pain in the Force is symbolically destroyed. (Interestingly enough, this same motivation is what caused him to have the one moment of weakness as he read Ben's mind at the training temple.) His idea of the use of power swings from one extreme to the other but with the ultimate goal of annihilation. (And fortunately Yoda steps in at this point, and Luke eventually returns to rationality and eventually the wisdom of the Jedi he is.)

And guess who's doing the exact same thing at pretty much the same time? Ben Solo. He's cut down the source of the misuse of his Force powers (Snoke, who has manipulated and weaponized him, as we know by his own words about tools). What does he do once the PG are out of the way? He wants to "burn it all down," letting all the established structures die, so that everything that has ever caused him pain in the past because of his Force powers is literally destroyed and some kind of new power construct of his own put into place.

Now we can insert the Skwyalker drama queens joke.

 

drama queens or jokers?

or both?

 

Luke, I mean Mark Hamill is definitely both!

Coincidence? I don't think so!

 

After What He Did In The Last Jedi, I Don’t Think He Will Be Redeemed

 

I think what this thread shows is that TLJ didn’t do what some have said and has in fact left much up in the air.

However, we’ve now seen in the past two films, Kylo make his journey into the dark side and then reject the opportunity to return to the light. As we enter IX and after the finale to TLJ, we anticipate seeing him as the supreme ruler. The question is whether this journey continues in the same direction or if we get the redemption?

Now, I’m not one for surprises for the sake of it. I don’t think surprises make for great films. A surprise can only happen once. The greatest film of all time is arguably The Godfather, based upon a book and is as captivating from the first viewing to the most recent one. However, it might just be that Ren’s journey has taken the course it has to make it largely unexpected for him to return. Killing Han might’ve been enough but having now rejected the chance to join Rey and end the war, it appears far less likely.

The thing that would make this “surprise redemption” worthwhile though, beyond it being a decent twist, would be because it highlights the core theme of Star Wars. A core theme that is as challenging as it is important - compassion.

If Ben is redeemed and his redemption isn’t a private one as it was with Anakin but involves “the entire galaxy” - then that will be, in my view, the ultimate expression of compassion. It will require our compassion to forgive Ren, but also that of the galaxy and those close to him. And that is a big ask. But if the ST is going to be a meaningful mythological continuation of the saga then it has to be brave. It has to put the moral message above that which is easier to digest.

For this reason amongst many others, I think Ben has to be redeemed. Otherwise the message will be weaker than that which Lucas has already “taught us”...

 

this is what we need.
Johnson knew that being brave would cost him.
let's hope Abrams has the same courage.

 

I think this underlined the difference in approach between RJ and JJ. The former took SW seriously. Yes, he had plenty of humour and fun. But philosophically it was rich and meaningful. JJ seems to prefer the spectacle with empty mystery boxes to keep people’s attention. It’s somewhat vacuous. That might be a touch unfair and I have hope he will look to rectify his mistakes with TFA. But like you say, he has to be brave and serious about this. Otherwise the ST will be rounded off with a fun movie that takes the saga in the direction of “typical Hollywood blockbuster” rather than the modern moral mythological masterpiece that it has been since 1977.

 

i think he can do it because honestly Johnson already did all the heavy lifting.
all Abrams has to do it give us something fun and satisfying without deviating from the themes.
as Johnson built on "the place of belonging" as defining it away from the past and from preconceptions, Abrams needs to resolve that: finally and for all the characters in a way that stays true to a message of hope and compassion and triumph.

 

I'm ok with a redemption arc if it's delivered intelligently, tastefully and originally.
Or, as translated into SW internet fanboy parlance..
If JJ ends 9 with a shot of Rey looking at force ghost Ben smiling up at force ghost Luke I'm liable to vomit into my mouth!

 

Kiss.

 

This! I've been thinking this way these last days.. Kylo's fight against his good feelings are what makes him a "monster", but I think he's not able to erase his good feelings cause he couldn't kill his mother and he felt empathy with Rey... So maybe he was using her weakness but I don't think it was with the purpose of making her suffer or something... But cause he really believed she belongs with him, not as a "rabid cur" but as a partner.. And I don't think Snoke was able of doing any of that...and that is the hint that makes us believe he is not completely lost..

Yep! Their goal was to not loose each other. And that was exactly what happened .-. Kylo needs to let go of "his destiny" and Rey might be his only string attached to a normal life.
Also, Rey needed to understand that Resistance as the good guys , are also pretty active on the fight. It wouldn't be enough with just "stop firing" at them. Their conflict involves a lot of things she's not familiar with. It couldn't go other way cause they were in the middle of an attack.. They were dying, so its credible that she could only think about grabbing the light saber and improvise..
BTW that light saber suspended on the air and then breaking up to stop them from fighting again... Just WOW

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 11, 2018 ---

Wonderful post! Thank you!!!

 

This might sound weird but the redemption of Kylo is strongly dependent on Snoke. As long as I don't know how many of Kylo's horrifying actions were caused by Snoke's manipulation and how many of them he did on a voluntary basis it is impossible for me to tell if he can be redeemed. For the time being it looks like he killed Han mostly for his own selfish reasons. He wasn't a double agent trying to win Snoke's trust, he didn't plan to get close to Snoke so that he could kill him. So yeah no redemption for Kylo unless Snoke is somehow made responsible for most of Kylo's crimes in IX.

 

Is this what Rey is supposed to be about . . . a plot device for Kylo Ren's story arc? Considering that she is supposed to be one of this trilogy's main protagonists? How revolting.

Kylo Ren doesn't HAVE TO BE redeemed. I'm not saying that he cannot be redeemed. I'm certain that Abrams can redeem the character if he wants to. But there is no real urgency for his redemption. And this idea that he HAS TO BE redeem makes no sense me , other than an example of fan worship of this character. Especially since the setup for the fascist man child's possible redemption fell apart at the end of "TLJ".

 

Do you think Kylo will be worthy of redemption the same way Luke saw that Vader was?