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Is Ben Redeemable?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by The Last Deadeye, Dec 15, 2017.

?

Will Ben be redeemed?

  1. Yes

    50 vote(s)
    33.8%
  2. No

    44 vote(s)
    29.7%
  3. It's not that clear cut

    22 vote(s)
    14.9%
  4. ...clouded, the future is

    32 vote(s)
    21.6%
  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think the Non-Skywalker protagonist is the biggest problem now in trying to link the 3 Trilogies, as I don't know who to blame: RJ? JJ? KK? I don't know who ultimately made the decision that Rey is not a Skywalker/Solo, and now it's too late for JJ to pull a 180 and make her related in Episode 9.

    Rey Skywalker/Solo should have been in some way the balance of Luke/Anakin with some theme to sum up the 9 Part Trilogy. That should have been the goal all along, but obviously they were writing EVERYTHING on the fly so who really knows how this will shake out. Maybe I'll be wrong, and JJ can tie this up nicely (I hope he does), but right now after TLJ, I'm not betting on it.
     
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  2. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    If KR is a protagonist, him attacking Luke at the end (projection or there physically) is very anti-protaganist.
     
  3. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Oh, now I get it. You don't know the difference between a main character and a protagonist. While a main character isn't necessarily the key focus of a story (for example Poe, Finn etc.), the protagonist is the one who changes the story.
    Kylo Ren changes the story of the TLJ quite alot, even more than Luke or Rey. => The protagonist always pursues a goal which keeps the story on going.

    Perhaps you think Kylo isn't a protagonist because he's the evil villain of this trilogy. He sure is. But you can also have villain protagonists in fictional writing. Villain protagonists are characters who share the traits of a villain, but who are also the central characters of the story (for example the Joker from TDK). A villain protagonist often undergoes a transformation during the events of the story. Sometimes he becomes good or even more bad. Doesn't this sound familiar to you? Right, it perfectly fits the description of Kylo Ren.
     
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  4. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Ok but isn't that an antagonist?
     
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  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Not necessarily. A protagonist is defined by being the character whose story we are following while an antagonist is just the opponent trying to stop the protagonist and his/her friends to reach the goal of the story. An antagonist usually doesn't undergoes a character development.

    If you look at this definition, you can clearly see that characters like Snoke, Hux or even Phasma are antagonists (at least at the moment). But it doesn't really fit with Kylo Ren.

    "Rey and Kylo are two halves of our protagonist." - Rian Johnson
     
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  6. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    If we look at the Skywalker's journeys until now,

    Anakin is tempted by the dark side, falls and is redeemed. ( dark)
    Luke is tempted by the dark side and resists. (light)

    Kylo has done too much for a completely light bright tree village celebration kind of ending, and yet I cannot see them making him Vader v.2.0...so it has to be something in between, something grey.

    To distinguish Kylo's journey from theirs, maybe Kylo finds being Supreme Leader isn't all it is cut out to be, that the FO's rule only throws the galaxy into more turmoil, and with Hux waiting to depose him at any given moment.

    It would be interesting if he just leaves, deciding that neither side is worth it, after giving some valuable intel to the resistance to topple Hux. He'll escape in a ship with a blaster (the ones Lando gifted him as a baby) and disappear into the unknown, leaving his fate open ended. Then they can either close off the Skywalker saga, or if the fans demand it, we'll get a new trilogy involving his descendants after a few years.
     
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  7. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    Hogon 2.0: I just killed Kylo Ren! The most infamous Dark Jedi ever! I can't wait to tell everyone at the cantina!
    Rey's daughter (Vima 2.0) who is not Kylo's kid: NOOOOO! Kylo......
    Rey: Disappeared. But only a Jedi Master could do that..... How?!
     
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  8. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I really hope they don't.

    I like that the Galaxy has pretty much aged in Real Time. Luke aged with Hammil. Leia aged with Carrie. That's really cool, to me.

    If we jump forward too far, we lose that. If we don't, we'll always have the possibility of Driver/Ridley/Boyega/Isaac/etc returning sometime in the future.
     
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  9. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

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    no my point was they could still play older Rey/Kylo/Finn/Poe etc who aged..... While the same actor/actresses play their kids.
    Look at the ending of the last Harry Potter movie. Now imagine Emma Watson playing Rose Weasley or Bonnie Wright playing Lily Potter II as well as Ginny in the same scene.
     
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  10. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    I think a time jump of over, say, 30 is a wee bit much.
     
  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Rebel Commander

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    I would say yes he is redeemable. Yes he has done some horrible things like slaughtering the Jedi and killing civilians, yet these are all things Vader did in spades. Kylo has shown that he is conflicted. When it came to killing Han he struggled with that and could not do the same to his mother. If Vader could be redeemed after everthing he did so can Kylo.
     
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  12. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Spoilers from the novelization of TLJ when specifically details of when Kylo couldn't hit the button. Okay, I don't know why put I can't get the spoiler tag to work.













    "Kylo would have frozen the missile coming at Leia if he was not surprised in the moment." If this isn't a dead giveaway that he will, I don't know what is

    Source: I'd post the link, but I don't know how to make it just the link.


    I also know that films take priority over books, so I don't know what if tidbit of info changes anything.
     
    #312 Andrew Waples, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
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  13. M70ko

    M70ko Rebel Commander

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    Whaaaaaaaat.....i'm hyped xD
     
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  14. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    If you want to look it up it Google Star Wars leaks Reddit. I know that Reddit doesn't have the best reputaton, but there is a lot of info there that would be incredibly hard to fake.
     
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  15. M70ko

    M70ko Rebel Commander

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    Okay this broke me x(
    "Toddler Ben carrying his father's dice around telling people he'll become a pilot like his daddy."

    :'(


    Loooooool I don't know how that spoiler alert works xD
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 25, 2018 ---
    Ohhh thank you! Whoever you are... (Force? Is that you?) xD I figured it out too late... (There's no "delete" button right?)
    Feel free to erase this as soon as you get it :p
     
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  16. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    you're all good! : D
     
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  17. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    The "anti-villain" definition makes me think of Kylo every time:

    "a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil. Alternatively, their desired ends are evil, but far more ethical or moral than most villains and they thus use fairly benign means to achieve it, and can be heroic on occasion."
    It seems to me they both share protagonist and antagonist traits and it's possible that Kylo and Rey could both be read as protagonists depending on the viewer or the definition:
    Viewers who follow Kylo as closely as Rey could argue they both propel the story forward.
    In providing obstacles and exploiting each others weaknesses they both play antagonistic roles for each other.

    That these main ST characters can be viewed as two halves of a protagonist or protagonists in their own right is one of the most intriguing aspect of the new characters for me.

    Nemeses who both think they're in "the right" and who are drawn to each other like Superman and Lex Luther or Batman and The Joker are usually interesting.
    On one hand they're enemy combatants on opposing sides of a war.
    On the other they share so much together; duality, abilities, vulnerabilities and insecurities, that they can be read as kindred spirits.
     
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  18. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    I’ve just found this thread now, but to answer the original question and keep the discussion going, I think he can be redeemed.

    The first thing I would like to say is that Rian Johnson referred to Rey and Kylo Ren as “two halves of the protagonist,” which I think is both interesting and true in some ways. I think you can’t help but feel sympathetic toward Kylo Ren to a degree because audiences can relate to his feelings of abandonment and isolation, probably more than they could relate to Anakin/Darth Vader.

    With that information in mind, as some of the posts above have stated, Kylo Ren not only hesitated when firing on Leia, but then wanted to stop the missile from hitting her ship, as confirmed in the novelization of The Last Jedi. He clearly has a soft spot for his mother, and because Leia was originally intended to be at the forefront of Episode IX, I wholeheartedly believe she was crucial in his redemption. If the film were to follow the pattern of its predecessors within this trilogy, Leia and Ben would’ve had a confrontation during the film’s climax that may or may not have ultimately decided his fate.

    With that being said, presuming Leia is dead by the time Episode IX begins, I think she can and will still be vital in spite of her on-screen absence. Perhaps the death of his mother is ultimately what convinces Kylo Ren to reconsider his actions.

    I think there’s a future for him, and maybe it’s because Adam Driver’s acting is so great that you can’t help but feel some level of empathy toward the character. But if we are assuming that what Kylo Ren tells Rey about her parentage is true, the same could be said of his future. Through their Force connection, Rey learns that he has a clear and bright future, and if that’s not the case, then the validity of his claims about her parentage is just as questionable.
     
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  19. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    A fitting tribute for Leia would be her son restoring the Republic on Coruscant. Ben Solo could turn from attempting to "kill the pasts" but instead restore a peaceful Republic.
     
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  20. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I must confess I thought the same at first but then I realized that Adam Driver is a very experienced actor and he would have not given JJ and Rj anything but what they wanted from him. It is clear to me that Kylo's character was conceived to be sympathetic "in spite of". He is the son of Han Solo, that's a dead give away...

    Yes, this is the way I see Kylo too. He is the definition of a Byronic hero: "Sometimes an Anti-Hero, others an Anti-Villain, or even Just a Villain, Byronic heroes are charismatic characters with strong passions and ideals, but who are nonetheless deeply flawed individuals who may act in ways which are socially reprehensible because he's definitely contrary to his mainstream society." Famous Byronic heroes are Heathcliff, Mr Darcy and Satan in Paradise Lost.
     
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