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Is Ben Redeemable?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by The Last Deadeye, Dec 15, 2017.

?

Will Ben be redeemed?

  1. Yes

    50 vote(s)
    33.8%
  2. No

    44 vote(s)
    29.7%
  3. It's not that clear cut

    22 vote(s)
    14.9%
  4. ...clouded, the future is

    32 vote(s)
    21.6%
  1. KyloRen1981

    KyloRen1981 Rebelscum

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    I don't know if Ben will be redeemed, but, I think he absolutely *should* be.

    From what we've been told so far, Kylo Ren is the result of three primary factors:
    1. A darkness in Ben Solo. Though we have never been told how much of that is naturally in Ben as opposed to simply the result of ...
    2. Snoke's manipulation (we are not given details on this). Which lead to ...
    3. The misunderstanding where Luke sees a great darkness in Ben and momentarily considers murdering him.

    Based on this equation, it is hard to know if any of the atrocities committed by Kylo Ren are actually the fault of Ben Solo. If cute and sweet looking Daisy Ridley played this character, I think the common perception would be that she had been tragically wronged by Snoke and Luke and deserved redemption. But, for some reason, because the character is portrayed by an odd-looking and physically imposing dude like Adam Driver, it's different. Instead, we accept that he should be punished for what he's become, despite his "pull towards the light" and his great inner turmoil regarding Han, Leia, and even Rey.

    I'm the first to admit I'm a Kylo fanboy, but, to me, those numbered factors are objective (the paragraph below them is subjective of course). So, based on that, I don't know how it would be just at all for Kylo to die a villain. But I worry it would make for a good "character moment" in illustrating Rey's triumph and so that might be how things turn out. =\
     
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  2. High General Kenobi

    High General Kenobi Rebel Trooper

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    I don't think he should be redeemed. For one, it would be another repetition of a character arc, which we already got in Star Wars, and I think we've had enough self-reference to last us for a while.

    But the most important thing is that it would completely invalidate Kylo Ren's arc in both VII and VIII, which are both about embracing the darkness and leaving the light behind. Even Leia has already given up on him by this point, and so we should. I hope they're wise enough to realize how counterproductive a choice this would be, but I fear for what Terrio could do.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Based on things Adam Driver has said I suspect that Ben Solo's arc may have been determined before this trilogy started.
    I am not afraid of Oscar winning writers.
     
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  4. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i get it because i know i was in such an emotional state by this point in the film that that's all i heard too the first time i watched TLJ.
    and i was furious. like hand-clenching inchoate with rage.

    but here's the thing: she says it, but Luke tells her she's wrong.

    giving up on Ben and the rebellion is Leia's lowest point in TLJ ~ but it's also her moment of growth.
    Luke comes, reminds her that "no one is ever gone", consoles her about Han, foreshadows his own death, and reassures her that though he can't save Ben nor fight the whole war for her, it ain't over and it ain't hopeless (which mirror's Maz's exhortation to Rey about her parents: they're not coming back, but someone else can).
     
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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I for one would absolutely hate if Rey’s success was determined by her defeating an unredeemed Kylo, but if they do it well and it fits the main story arc, I suppose I’ll eat my words.... But the writer in me just can’t see that happening. If feels boring or something, I don’t know.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2018 ---
    I think that too.
     
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  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    the original all-but-logline for the ST was that Han and Leia have to rescue their son. so yeah, while i know a lot of people point to Abrams saying it's about the "making of a villain", i can't imagine why anyone would believe him on this point so steadfastly.

    yes, Ren is right now at this moment a made villain: he's Supreme Leader in command the galaxy.
    he has it all. question is: what's he going to do with it?
    go on being a villain just to get defeated by the good guys in a rote fashion? highly doubtful.

    because at the end of the day, he may rule the galaxy, but he's never been farther from what he really wants.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Exactly. I think that if RJ failed in something in TLJ was in making “hope” a bit clearer for the audience, but that could have been intentional... RJ has confessed that he did not want to lead the story in any direction by the end of TLJ, so that the next director had a white canvas to work with ( also perhaps not to spell out the general path episode 9 may take, as I think he has been informed about the general trajectory of the ST characters )
     
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  8. High General Kenobi

    High General Kenobi Rebel Trooper

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    I usually agree with a lot of what you say, but no this one. Assuming that a writer is infallible only because they once won an Oscar, is a fallacy.

    Just from the top of my head, you have multiple examples in the recent years: Alexander Payne did win his Oscar, but he also has doubtful scripts to his name, like
    I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry, Jurassic Park III and the recent Downsizing. Diablo Cody did write Jennifer's Body after her Oscar win. Even freaking
    Julian Fellowes wrote The Tourist, and William Monahan made Sin City: A Dame to Kill For. Not to mention Akiva Goldsman, who was resposible for the atrocious screenplays for Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.

    And of course, then there's Terrio himself, who has already proved he can write completely terrible screenplays.

    So, yeah, I think we are allowed to be nervous, past accolades or not.


    Right after he says "I can't save him", so I think the "No one is ever really gone" points to another thing. There is obviously a bit of the boy Ben was inside him, he still lives there. But at this point he can't be redeemed.

    Heck, it wouldn't just ruin Kylo's arc. It would even ruin Rey's. Most of her arc in TLJ was about failing to understand Ben couldn't be redeemed.
     
    #328 High General Kenobi, Mar 26, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I disagree. It was failing to understand Kylo’s redemption depends on no one else but himself.

    Let’s not make Luke’s mistake, lighting up that saber and believing kylo was beyond hope, and instead let’s follow what Rey really learns at the end of TLJ: that kylo’s future is in no one’s hands but the force’s, what, in my non-deterministic way of thinking, means: Kylo’s hands.
     
    #329 Kylocity, Mar 26, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    it's all interconnected. @Kylocity's answer says it all.

    it's not for Luke to save Ben, but that doesn't mean Ben's beyond saving ~ or that Leia should give up hope.
     
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  11. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    If Darth Vader was, then so is Ben Solo.
     
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  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    The fact is that Ren now has it all and the past is dead for him.
    He has pretty much found himself on top of the pile. No he hasn't destroyed the Jedi, but he has gone further than Vader ever did.
    He is, by all accounts and by name, The Supreme Leader.

    With this in mind, will it simply be that Ren remains on this trajectory and IX is all about destroying him? I don't see it.
    What is clear to me is that, at some point in the next film (likely before midway), Ren will be forced to evaluate what all this has brought him.
    His dad is dead. His mentor/boss is dead. His uncle is dead. His mum is dead. He leads the FO. He is as strong with the Dark Side as he could ever likely be.

    The night is darkest before the dawn...

    Essentially, it's clear that the path to redemption for Ren (as it was for Vader), is only possible by going through the Dark Side in its entirety.
    The only way Ren is ever going to get over the conflict between light and dark is by tasting the full power of the dark side and realising for himself that it is bitter.
    Once he does that and he realises he is left wanting, he will see that the true path to fulfilment is compassion, selflessness and love.

    In order for this realisation to occur however there will have to be a moment of introspection. And the problem with the Dark Side is that it is an easy path and thus when walking it unopposed, it's far easier to keep moving in the same direction. Something needs to happen to get him to question the worth of it all.
    That something, could be the failure of the FO (with the light rising to meet it in IX), it could be Hux betraying him and Kylo being gravely injured or it could be Rey being in mortal danger...or a mixture of all three (which I suspect is more likely).

    Either way, at some point Ren will have to look into himself and realise the Dark Side is not satisfying him and that he is in fact losing that which, deep down, is truly important to him. Chuck in a couple of Force ghosts of Star Wars past (Anakin, Luke, Leia) and Ben Solo will return...
     
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  13. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    Wants to embrace darkness and reject light, feels misunderstood by father and kills him in an emotional moment, manipulated by wealthy powerful force user from a young age and becomes his apprentice, kills master and ends up assuming political leadership.... I wonder where I have seen such a character in Star Wars before? (emperor)

    But I doubt they'll repeat this path for another character....I think Ben Solo will either die performing an act of redemption or disappear into some obscure part of the galaxy.
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    The Darth Plagueis novel is my most favourite non canon novel, but I've never notice the parallel between Kylo and Sidious. That's nice! The only question remains, will Kylo maintain this parallel?
     
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    #PlagueisConfirmed! #Sorta. XD

    there is a possibility that Ben and Rey will split the galaxy and maintain independent powers (thus ensuing a long future of star destroyers and storm troopers locked in battles with rebels). but that, to me, is a pretty dark and nihilistic ending.

    i remember the first time i put the Clone Wars cartoon on: i hadn't seen the prequels in forever and i was disoriented about who was on what side: the clones are the good guys? or the bad guys? i fergit.

    i'd love to see the stormtroopers become the peace keepers of the galaxy under a benevolent guidance of either Ben and Rey at the helm or else having installed a truly democratic system while they pop off into some other adventure that may or may not involve having 17 children for subsequent trilogies and EU nonsense. in an ideal world. this doesn't solve all the problems, but allows everyone to find their own levels and the battles can be less about "rule the galaxy" and more about intrigues, resources, territory, etc., with a good mix of fighting, politics, diplomatic adventures, etc.

    i don't know. just spitballing as usual.

    my point being that Ben lives and helps continues to shape the future of the galaxy through wisdom he's gained as a result of this Dark experience.
     
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  16. NOT JEDI MATERIAL

    NOT JEDI MATERIAL Rebel Trooper

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    I thought for some time that in episode 9 Ben and his mother would find themselves in some kind of of conflict. It makes perfect sense since she has never spoken to him directly in TFA and TLJ but only through others (Han). Ben cannot bury the past without involving his mother somehow right? She is the most important person to him as a mother might be. She could feel good/bad in him using the force and lets face it Ben striking her down would be HUGE! Personally I saw Rey's peril as the perfect opportunity for this to play out but since Carrie Fishers passing they cannot easily do things this way. Instead there is now a void that allows almost anything to be possible.
     
  17. Darth_Confused

    Darth_Confused Rebelscum

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    When Leia says "My son is gone", Luke replies with: "No one is ever really gone" What possibly could be the another thing that Luke points to?
    It looked pretty straight forward to me.

    I disagree it would ruined Kylo's arc - obviously it's matter of different tastes here. As for Rey - most of her arc wasn't about Kylo at all and his possible redemption - it was about her finding her place in GFFA and the Force related stuff. I don't know if you have read Jason Fry's novel. There's a passage after the Throne room showdown and Fry gave us the insight into Rey's thoughts (unfortunately that bit is missing in the movie). From that it's obvious that Rey didn't make any decision or even has an opinion on Kylo's possible redemption but she leaves it to the will of the Force.
     
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  18. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I guess here's one interesting thought:

    No matter what Vader did, he was always under the authority and influence of Palpatine. I think in a lot of ways, Vader was as much a slave to Palpatine as the galaxy was subservient to the Empire itself.

    With Snoke gone now, it's likely Ben is now solely responsible for the actions of the First Order. He takes on a lot more of the responsibility of his actions than Vader could, in my opinion.


    So, I guess it depends on how he uses the First Order. Will he try to restore freedom to the galaxy, or rule as a brutal dictator? I think the latter seems more likely, and if that's the case than I think his redemption is a long shot.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I think he will rule under the guise of what he sees as freedom.
     
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  20. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Well that might complicate things.
     
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