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Is it time for Favreau/Filoni fans to feel the heat?

Discussion in 'General TV Series Discussion' started by Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi

    Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi Rebel Official

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    I’ve wanted to post this for several weeks now but was reluctant to do so because I know heated tempers will not respond kindly. (But I’m posting it anyways.)

    For several years, an increasingly vocal segment of fandom has criticized Kathleen Kennedy (and Star Wars in general) for rebranding the franchise in such a way:
    1) being inclusive, more women and people of color, sexualities are included (the haters will call it “woke.”)
    2) re-working old characters in ways they were not meant to behave (hermit Luke Skywalker cutting himself off from the Force) and
    3) storytelling inconsistencies (killing off Admiral Ackbar instead of letting him live, killing Snoke too soon, etc).

    My open question for y’all is this: isn’t it time Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni receive some criticism? While Mandalorian and Rebels has (generally) given OT fans what they expected and desired, Book of Boba Fett is structured similarly to the the Sequel Trilogy. Here are some examples:
    1) Boba Fett is “weaker.” He’s always getting knocked down in a fight and must soak in a bacta tank every day. The old Boba Fett never had any issues with strength.
    2) Boba Fett is no longer a loner. He wants to “rule with respect” and learns to be comrades with natives (aka Tuskin Raiders.) He’s not even a bounty hunter anymore!
    3) Tuskins are now “good guys.” They are no longer mindless monsters who beat you up for the pleasure of doing so and celebrating by raising their staffs over their heads. They have a culture. They have a spiritual connection to the natural world (the Force?) In other words, they are now likable.
    4) The leader of the Tuskins was a woman. (I think that’s been confirmed now.)
    5) rancors are now “lovable” creatures if treated kindly.
    4) Fennick Shand is a ‘tougher’ character than Boba Fett. Ironically, she acts more like traditional Boba than Boba himself! Fennick is a woman of color.
    5) Storytelling inconsistencies/errors. Boba Fett rarely flies with his jet pack to escape problems. Mos Espa suddenly has no podracing (that one bothers me.) There are now trains criss-crossing Tatooine, etc. etc. etc.

    And we’re still on the third episode of the series!

    What point am I trying to make? While I don’t want the fandom to hate Favreau and Filoni, these changes in canon and perspective indicate Favreau and Filoni are not working in a vacuum. The “mistakes” made by Rian Johnson, JJ Abrams, and others are being repeated here by Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni, right under fans’ noses! And yet, Favreau and Filoni are not receiving the same level of open criticism. I believe this is because the fandom has become increasingly tribal in recent years to reflect their political frustrations. “I don’t like this show because I’m not on Team Kathleen!” Or “I like Rebels because I’m on Team Filoni!” “Jon Favreau is the only person I trust to get this right!” Etc. Etc.
    In the end, there is no “civil war” brewing between Favreau and Kathleen Kennedy. Toxic Youtube channels intent on splitting the fandom such as Doomcock and Mike Zeroh are, in fact, incorrect in their assumptions. All the creative people (Favreau, Filoni, as well as Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams) work under the Disney banner together. Kathleen Kennedy oversees the tv shows as much as the theatrical films. And even Kathleen answers to someone higher up than herself (no, she does not own Disney.)
     
    #1 Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi, Jan 12, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
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  2. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Hmm... I get what you're saying, and I think it's an important thing to observe.

    Simply put, I think it's easy for the Fandom Menace (excuse me while I wash my hands after typing that) to hate on Kennedy simply because she is a woman. I'm sure they'd deny that, but I think your post alone demonstrates that pretty clearly. She's a convenient lightning rod for anything fans dislike- which for the Fandom Menace (ewwwwww), these things tend to be what they see as "woke", though of course simply featuring characters that aren't all white straight men is hardly a political issue.

    I can definitely see some of the points you make here as stuff they'd complain about, though I'm sure you and I agree that it's nonsense. For instance- if Boba Fett were shown to be all powerful, where would the conflict in the story come from? And wouldn't that make him a "Mary Sue" (lord knows the Fandom Menace would've called a female character that given half the competency).
     
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  3. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Darth Lexor Kai

    Darth Lexor Kai General of the Future Folk

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    A lot here to unpack and digest. There are things I like about Fav Feloni’s take. Feloni is known for giving charters more dimension in the Star Wars universe. I don’t think it’s really anything new. Take Anakin for example. In the Movies he’s kind of an annoying brat that hasn’t grown up yet. Talented.. but Flawed. Hubris. But once they started fleshing him out in clone war’s our perception of who he was at his core was changed. He became likable. Asoka was the same. Though that took more time. She needed to mature as a charter.

    a few of the things you mention like Boba Fett being this unstoppable bad MFer is based on a few very short scenes we actually see him in. My biggest question for this show is what the hell does Boba Fett want with Tatooine?? What’s the motivation to get out of bounty hunting and become a crime lord on a planet that no one cares about? I’m hoping we get answers to those questions.

    but before we get there I think it’s important to note that we just didn’t know a lot about what Fett was up to in his off time. And we don’t know for certain what the Bacta tank is treating. Maybe it was the fact that he was nearly digested. Or maybe something in the flashbacks we have yet to see. It’s still too soon to judge.

    I’m OK with giving the Tuskins culture.

    the fact that the chief is a woman isn’twokeness for me. It’s just proof that gender really doesn’t matter if the story is well written. Something sequel trilogy apologists don’t get when we criticize Rey for being bland. Her being a woman has nothing to do with poor writing.

    rancor: It may seem odd, but I’m not surprised by the Rancor being lovable. Not at all actually. Remember how the guard approached the poor beast once Luke smashed his head with a door? What sympathy he had for the Rancor. It was his pet. There are a lot of ugly dogs out there that would have done the same thing the rancor did to Luke if we ran into it’s territory.

    to your 4th point… again. We don’t know enough about Fett to make that determination. Maybe he got ahead in life because he’s been as strategic as we’ve seen so far in the show. But I understand where you’re coming from. We all want to see him wipe the floor with the scum and villainy afoot. That’s what we payed to see. He’s our gladiator after all.

    bottom line is we were only looking at these characters and places though small windows. And now the door is beginning to open and we see more of what the beaches of tatooine have to offer. So grab a cold one, stick your umbrella in the sand with me and let’s ride this wave!

    great post. Fantastic points made.
     
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  5. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    dis.jpg

    To the disliker : that joke from @cawatrooper is fine and tasteful.
    The Fandom Menace is a reality, and a plague for many. Too bad you don't get it.
     
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  6. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    You're definitely not along in wondering that, but I find it really interesting how this is a loose end for people.

    Maybe we'll get an answer for this, but I think it's reasonable enough to assume that Fett is advancing in the way that he knows. He was a bounty hunter and was to some extent in Jabba's court. Makes sense to me that as he moves up in the galaxy, he'd recognize the vacancy there and move to fill it.
     
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  7. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    He wants justice.
    Jabba ruled with fear, he intends to rule with respect.
    He gave the Tuskens an official recognition of their land. Plus: he managed to guarantee them the payment of a fee by the syndicate.
    Heisting the train, he gave them guns, machines and water.
    He lets his enemies go. He doesn't use humiliation.

    Bob wants peace and justice.
     
  8. Darth Lexor Kai

    Darth Lexor Kai General of the Future Folk

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    I hear you. But was does he really care about justice? He’s a bounty hunter. He can’t take anything that happens to him on the job personally. It wouldn’t be in his nature. He even said as much when there was a bounty on his own head with the Wookiee.
     
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  9. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    My take is : " He was a bounty hunter before the Saarlaac. He's no more. "
    No more in his head, no more in his behaviour. (Just like, in sort of a poetry, Anakin passed from Jedi to Sith, after a terrible accident who costed him severe injuries of his body).
    The Sarlaac's stomach, the escape, the tuskens, led him to become another man.
    A bounty hunter is a little hand who works in the shadows. A crime lord is the respectable summit of a mountain (only god is above) (for the ones who believe there is one).
    Boba wants to take a new step into a larger world.

    (This is *just* what I think, don't know how much I am correct)
     
    #9 daRinze, Jan 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Yeah, I think the show has done a pretty reasonable job of showcasing how post-ROTJ Boba is different than the pre-ROTJ Boba.
     
  11. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I don't disagree, but I think the show has done a poor job as showing that, at least to me. Then again, the show had an uphill battle to climb since I wasn't on board or ever really excited about it nor did I ever care for the titular character...

    Why would Boba want to be a different man? What's the inciting reason behind this?
    Why should Boba come to respect his capturers - his slavers? Why stay with them a second longer than he has to, honestly?
    Why would Boba want to be a respectful leader at first? As a bounty hunter, he of all people should know that respect is earned, not given.
     
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  12. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    Yeah. You can read this stuff into the show if you want. Nothing contradicts this read. But at the end of the day, the show itself isn't doing it.

    But back to the main topic:

    I don't really like to make it a "Favreau/Filon vs Kennedy" thing, because it really isn't. Kennedy is involved in the shows and the movies. Filoni has had input beyond TV as well. And so many different people are involved in each project.

    I think the real distinction is "TV vs Movies," because that's where you see the biggest discrepancy.

    We've had two movies that almost everyone loved (TFA and RO), two movies that divided fans (TLJ and Solo) and one movie that disappointed the vast majority of fans and critics (TROS). We've also had numerous cancelled, delayed, and reshot movies.

    As for TV shows, Book of Boba is the first real disappointment as far as I'm concerned, counting both animated and live action shows. Almost every show has been produced without drama (Rangers of the New Republic being the exception) and almost every show is universally loved (Mando, Bad Batch, Clone Wars, Rebels, Visions. Resistance is somewhere on the low end but many enjoyed it).


    Taking all that into account, it seems like the movies have a problematic pattern with a few bright spots. The shows, on the other hand, have a really positive pattern with just this one flop, Book of Boba--and lots of fans seem to be enjoying Boba even so.

    So no, I don't think it's time for Favreau and Filoni to catch some crap. If you have so many wins in your record, you can write off one loss as a fluke until the future proves otherwise.

    The movies, however, can't afford many more losses, delays, and disagreements. They already have a negative pattern. I think that's why there are so few movies on the schedule right now. Lucasfilm knows they need to correct their strategy--and good for them. I would rather them take the time and get it right.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Agreed. It's also a really dangerous line to walk, in my opinion. I know that's not what OP intended, and I think their points are salient, but I'd hate for the wrong side of the internet to jump onto this idea.
     
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  14. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    Why?

    This dynamic duo are the ones responsible for a nothing-short-of-amazing revitaliziation of Star Wars. Seriously, where would the franchise be after TROS without them?
    Changes in canon??!? There's a Grand Canyon-wide difference between the so-called examples you gave and the changes to the SW mythology we've seen in recent films.

    This 'first real disappointment' had the highest viewed finale in Disney+ history. ;)

    Look, in my opinion, there is a lot that Favreau could have done to improve the overall arch of the Season 1 story which would have led to a more emotionally powerful season finale. But that said, the show wasn't bad by any standard. Heck, Episodes 5 and 6 were 'as good as it gets' when it comes to classic Star Wars entertainment.

    Given the fan reception to the last two SW films, I realize it's become fashionable to throw around the word, 'hate.' But come on, that word isn't even in the vocabulary of most Favreau & Filoni SW fans.
     
  15. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Personally, I don't think Favreau & Filon deserves any particular criticism. I can't really think of any major issue with them. They are fine writers and directors, and seem like nice people. That said, their praise is definitely exaggerated and dripping with hyperbole, but all right, I can live with that. I’ll rather take unfounded applaud and ridiculous glorification of SW creators, than unfounded condemnation and ridiculous vitriol spewed at SW creators.

    F&F are no Rian Johnson or Lawrence Kasdan, but they are good enough and I, for one, can appreciate that a segment of the fandom just loves the two dudes. That is a good thing for the fandom and the franchise.

    So no, I don’t think there’s any particular need to criticize F&F at the moment… at is, unless there is behind-the-scenes stuff or personal conduct going on with these two that I don’t know about.
     
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  16. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    Glad to hear it given you're a mod on this dedicated Star Wars fan site. ;) ;) ;)

    When it comes to ridiculously glorifying or bashing the things a writer and director did in a film or TV show, everything is subjective.

    Favreau and Filoni are no Rian Johnson or Lawrence Kasdan? Are you being serious?

    When it somes to the accomplishments of creators like Jon Favreau, Rian Johnson, Lawrence Kasdan, or Dave Filoni, they have ALL shown themselves to be incredibly talented writers and directors with long, impressive resumes under their belts. While you're entitled to believe that Favreau is somehow 'less than' Johnson when it comes to being a filmmaker, the evidence from their respective resumes says otherwise. For what its worth, JF's net worth is over 100 million while RJ's is around 18 milliion. No doubt, RJ's fortune is going to continue to grow. He'll soon be coming out with a sequel to his blockbuster whodunnit, "Knives Out," On the other hand, Favreau's net worth is going to skyrock with his new deal with Disney.

    When it comes to posting hyperbole, my point is simply to practice what you preach, Reverend. ;)
     
  17. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Quite serious, yes. F&F are no Rian Johnson or Lawrence Kasdan, definitely not.
    As for how much money people have in the bank, I haven't a clue and couldn't care less.
     
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  18. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    LOL You are most certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm sure somebody out there on the interwebs seriously believes Steven Spielberg and George Lucas aren't in Rian Johnson's league either. But what the heck, it's what discussion boards are all about.

    I just found your take amusing coming from a poster who only moments earlier was decrying the prevalance of over-the-top, "unfounded" and "ridiculous" hyperbole. :) :) :)
     
    #18 Darth Derringer, May 2, 2022
    Last edited: May 2, 2022
  19. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Your point about Filoni, I agree. He still hasn't proven himself yet until he makes a billion dollar film and isn't no Rian or Lawrence. But I disagree about Jon. I'd argue he's on par if not better than Rian Johnson and Lawrence Kasdan. Not only he acted in several big name films but he took a b-list comic book character and turned him into a house hold name like Batman, Superman and The Hulk are and helped jump started the juggernaut of the MCU in a time where comic book movies were a joke and not taken seriously. Despite I'm lukewarm about The Mandalorian, I'd argue the success of it more due to Jon than Dave.
     
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  20. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    I can agree with that. Fair points. Favreau is definitely prolific, and his impact on shaping popular culture is unmistakable. Personally, I’m not a mega-fan of his films – I consume them with popcorn-munching joy but they don’t stay in my mind – but that is hardly a general thing.

    As for Favreau’s Star Wars servings, I think they’re pretty good. A lot of it is straight-forward action figure stuff, but there is strong drama in it, too. Still, the only stroke of genius that I’ve seen so far, is Grogu – Favreau’s name will forever be tied to Star Wars now because of that character; cool.

    And just to be clear, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with F&Fs work; most of it is pretty good, and I’m not aware of any troubling behavior or the alike associated with them, so F&F are good in my book. But I find the “have saved Star Wars” and “make F&F joint presidents of LFL”, etc. etc. type of hyperbole to be really, really dumb. But yeah, go team Jon & Dave (and all their excellent friends)! :D
     
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