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Is Rogue One Disney’s best Star Wars film yet?

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by Dr. Reebox24, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. Dr. Reebox24

    Dr. Reebox24 Rebel General

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    No, I rush to Rogue One because it holds up as story that can’t be poked full of holes like the Last Jedi. I’ll concede that Rogue One has pacing issues and perhaps the characters aren’t the next Han Luke and Leia, but the motivations of our heroes is clear, their mission has purpose, and it isn’t full of cringey preaching or bad jokes either. As a piece of filmmaking, Rogue One is actually MUCH more tonally consistent than TLJ.
    And on a slightly unrelated note final note, Rogue One made its worlds feel lived-in in a way the sequel trilogy really hasn’t, capturing that unique dirty and dangerous feeling from the OT and parts of the PT that the sequels simply haven’t touched.
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Great post. No doubt that the characters aren't close to Luke, Leia and Han, but that is the movies greatest strength is it doesn't have to replicate them. After TLJ, it all kind of hit me that the PT and ST are trying so hard to mimic the OT in terms of everything, that it affects the storytelling. Rey/Kylo can't tell their own story because they are compared to Luke/Vader, Resistance vs The First Order can't tell their own story because they are compared to the Rebellion and Empire. Snoke is compared to The Emperor, Jakku is compared to Tatooine, Ach-Tu is compared to Dagobah, etc.

    Rogue One gets to be it's own movie even though it's part of a bigger story from Episode 4. Noboby is comparing Jyn Erso to Rey, Luke or Anakin. Nobody is comparing General Krennic to Darth Vader, The Emperor or Snoke. That is why the ST is not going to hold up as well is because the same stories keep getting told with different characters, and then the fanbase is split if they don't like how an older Han, Luke or Leia is portrayed.

    I've actually really changed my view on the SW Franchise after TLJ, in that I'm really interested in the Standalone Movies instead of the Saga movies for these reasons. A few months ago I was primed for Episode 9 and didn't really care about the Han Solo movie, but I'm intrigued to see how the Solo Trailer is when it comes out in the next few days, where I honestly just don't care about Episode 9 anymore.
     
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  3. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    As a piece of filmmaking Rogue One's script was literally made by a comitee syncing and mixing different movie scenes together, then writing dialogue to it... And when scenes turned out to have bad pacing (the end terrestrial battle) or characters having no arc or real motivation whatsoever they rewrote and reshot like half of it (with another director). Plus added Vader to the end to crown the thing with some lightsaber porn.
    Ben Mendelson commented how Krennic literally had like a dozen of compeltely different variations...
    It's a very basic heist movie wrapped in Star Wars skin and as much fanservice as you can possibly imgaine.

    Feel free to dislike again, but this is the truth. Fans don't want to see intriguing storylines or old characters facing new challenges. All they want is unchanged Star Wars orgy.
    Basically any movie from any genre could be made to result in a Rogue One style "Star Wars story".
     
    #43 General_Tarkin, Jan 9, 2018
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  4. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I won't take issue with whether you like or dislike the film, because it's all a matter of opinion. I think the strength of R1 is that it doesn't rely on old characters as the new cast is refreshing. Yes the movie has Vader, Tarkin and a Leia cameo, but the main characters are Jyn Erso and General Krennic. After seeing what they have done with the ST, I don't want to see old character arcs changed anymore as they should have retired Luke, Leia and Han after ROTJ. They really didn't change any arcs of Vader or Tarkin in this movie, and I think that is why it works for me.
     
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  5. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Well, until The Last Jedi, it was for me. I certainly liked it more than TFA and I liked TFA.

    For me, TLJ is now the best although it's somewhat like comparing apples and oranges. RO is a simple story with a simple objective, the theme is hope, TLJ is thematically a treasure trove. And while the final battle in Rogue One remains one of my favorites in SW in general, aesthetically and conceptually I prefer TLJ.

    So, I would have to say, for me, no.
     
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  6. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Most certainly not for me. Rogue One is a lovely Star Wars movie, but has some serious identity problems. Is it a war movie or a traditional star wars movie? It began as the former, but ended more in the direction of the latter. It also is quite lacking in emotional depth and thematic content for me. The pacing and acting is furthemore not on par with the Star Wars movies I really love. But I do love Rogue One though, don't get me wrong. I only really don't like the prequels, but still watch those and can appreciate them at moments. I'm a Star Wars fan for Christ sake's, what would you expect? :p

    For me, TLJ, ESB and TFA stand on top, followed by ANH and ROTJ. RO comes after ROTJ.
     
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  7. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    No Star Wars fan can really dislike Rogue One and neither do I. It's stylistically designed to suffice the needs of a Star Wars fan... Little to no challenge or change in the story/lore or the old characters, just pure Star Wars atmosphere (it's undoubteldy well directed though), over the top music which makes even tying your shoes the most emotional moment ever etc.
    That's arguable. Many say the characters are the weakest points of the film. I personally think the movie suffers from the exact same problem as the ST: Too many characters. But while the ST benefits from multiple episodes, R1 crams like half a season of Game Of Thrones into a two hours long movie. And it shows...
    It has problems both thematically and narratively as well. Some of the "depth" is very forced and some of the arcs either. They feel inorganic and aren't fleshed out enough at all. The pacing also has serious issues. It could've been much better with a better script and more focus. The movie feels like to me the filmmakers couldn't decide between character driven story or narrative based one, so they went with a hybrid of some sort resulting in a mixed outcome to me...
     
    #47 General_Tarkin, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  8. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Little or no change to the Old Characters, is EXACTLY why I like R1. Once you start messing with arcs of characters from previous Trilogies, you are walking a fine line of possibly alienating a portion of the fans because you can't please everyone. Right now, the arc of Luke Skywalker will overshadow TLJ for years and I don't think anyone will ever look at that movie objectively in that respect. I'm glad that R1 focused on new characters that weren't related to the Skywalkers as it was refreshing in that sense.

    I agree with you that the lack of character development makes me rate R1 is a very good/solid movie instead of a great movie. I also agree with you there are too many characters in the ST and R1. I think R1 could have been a great movie is it just focused on Jyn Erso, Cassian, K-2SO and maybe another rebel, and really fleshed them out. I think the stuff were talking about is more a symptom of what is wrong with the modern day blockbuster in that these director are fearful of characters development over wow moments because they think they will lose the audience. The Rose/Finn subplot is a perfect example of that as it contributes nothing to the movie, nor the characters, and just adds on a half hour to a bloated film.
     
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  9. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Fan reception is fleeting. Critics will be speaking about Luke Skywalker and how much they love his portrayal in TFA for a long time to come. No critic is seriously remembering anyone from Rogue One, only CGI Tarkin and the discussion about reanimating dead characters (I love CGI Tarkin though, but the critics community was divided).

    But don't get me wrong I love Rogue One, I just don't think it stands up against TFA and TLJ.
     
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  10. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I never said that R1 will hold up as this mass popular movie years from now, but that doesn't mean it still can't be a solid entry that holds up better then the ST or PT. The Luke Skywalker portrayal in TLJ will always be controversial as some love it and some hate it (it is exactly split among the people I work) and that will never change. That is my whole point about R1 is that it didn't mess with the OT characters in terms of portraying them any differently, so the fans weren't split over that movie in that respect.

    Again, I never said R1 was a great movie, just a solid entry to the franchise. I look back at the PT and ST and my opinions are all over the place with those movies because there is a lot of good but there is just as much bad, and that is the difference.
     
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  11. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    The Rose/Finn subplot is probably the worst example to that. A better example would've been half the recent Marvel repertoire...

    The reason why that subplot didn't work wasn't because the writer was afraid of anything. First, the setoff already doomed it. Why do they need Maz Kanata's help to find a spy/rogue? Don't they know one themselves? Do we really need to see how they bring another character to proceed with that plot? Couldn't they pI don't like the character of Maz at all, but I think they used her terribly in TLJ... She was just there for cheap exposition and nothing else... Why is she even dealing with some "union dispute", when the defining battle of the Galaxy is going on at the same time?
    Anyways, the subplot took out two side characters for a far away mini-adventure. It immidiately removed any tension from the chase-plot. It also made no sense whatsoever. They made it seem as space travel is like taking out the garbage...
    In a mere hours they're back and forth from a different planet... No. That's not how it works. That's not how any of it works.

    Second, it didn't work because the characters themselves simply aren't really interesting enough. It didn't help eithter that their "developement" is nothing really more than just reading exposition and dialogues right into the face of the audince. No real journey.
    Nor did the fact help that the message of the subplot was incredibly poorly delivered. They literally pull out some anti-war, anti-elite message out of nowhere! Agree or disagree with a message in a film, one thing is for sure: You have to experience it, feel it, understand it, see it. I'm not even sure what was RJ thinking there, or why anyone around him didn't warn him that this is not how you tell a story... You can't just outright say it, then pretend to be deep... That's not what a visual medium was made for.
    Same with Rey's cave scene. Did that really need narration? Not at all.
    And yeah... The sublot as bad as it was didn't contribute anything to the main story either.

    Compared to that R1 is indeed a masterpiece. The problem isn't what's in the movie, but what isn't. Bodhi's desertion, Krennick- Galen relation, Jyn-Galen relation, Jyn-Saw story, Cassian story, Chirrut- Baze story etc... Heck, even the imperial scientists working on the Death Star and how they deal with it morally would've made a great story alone. Not to mention the romance. The brief moments in R1 were far better, organic, and real than anything TFA or TLJ pulled.
    I think that is what most "hardcore" fans want from Star Wars. They don't want originality at all. They want their old headcanon coming alive. It's hypocrisy at it's finest.
    To me personally, good ideas, unchanged old characters and atmosphere only don't make a good Star Wars film. Maybe a good game or a novel. But as a film that just makes an unnecessary cashgrab imo. And that is why even with all it's flaws I find TLJ better than R1. I'm tired of listening to how poorly executed great ideas (R1, PT) make good Star Wars.
    I want to see great ideas and great execution coming alive.
     
    #51 General_Tarkin, Jan 9, 2018
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  12. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    Allowing old characters to change doesn't necessarily mean messing with previous arcs. TLJ doesn't contradict anything that happened to Luke before, it simply allows him to grow and change. Asking creators not to contradict or alter the past is fine, in my book, but asking characters to stay the same forever is the same as asking for bad movies.

    Rogue One, in my opinion, is a perfectly fine movie. It's on the level of a good Marvel movie. But I don't think it has as much rewatch value as TFA or TLJ. TLJ will be remembered because it goes to real, honest places with character and theme. Rogue One is mostly plot-driven.
     
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  13. Bargwill Tomder

    Bargwill Tomder Rebel Official

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    While I never liked TFA as much as R1, I did care about the characters in it. TLJ damaged that a bit (especially Finn).
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2018 ---
    You are selling Bodhi so short here. Even just in the Battle of Scarif (remember: the "rebellion" hinged on him several times before that), he ran through enemy fire to make the connection. He was the connection between Raddus and Jyn/Cassian. The victory was impossible without him.
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I mean, I may have been a bit hyperbolic there, but ultimately what he did revolved around hiding in a shuttle for the majority of the battle, running into fire once so that he could set up his phone for the call that he could make.

    And don't get me wrong, that's an important part, for sure! But I'm not arguing whether or not what the characters do is important- after all, Jyn and Cassian getting the file was also vital to success.

    It's just that, in comparison to the amazing battle against the walkers on the beach and the incredible space battle, these smaller moments with the heroes get really overshadowed.

    I've heard that the scene from the trailers of the whole group running toward a walker boiled down to this: in earlier drafts, everyone survived the Citadel- then, they all grouped together to run across the beach to the relay station to beam up the plans, fighting stormtroopers and dodging walkers along the way as the Rogue One squad went down one by one.

    I think that would have been a far better ending, in my opinion. Bringing everyone back together after a success, only to throw them into the heat of the action and force them to watch their plan slowly deteriorate together would have been breathtaking and heartbreaking.

    And again, I loved Rogue One- I just think this could have been an improvement on it.
     
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  15. stencil

    stencil Rebel General

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    So this is all IMO of course, but I think TFA was a vastly superior movie to Rogue One.

    Rogue One had a compelling high-level story and had the potential to be a suspenseful and heartbreaking war story. But for me it fell flat because the characters were not developed enough, particularly Jyn. It boils down to the fact that I never believed Jyn was a real person. I never really cared what happened to her and her death didn't move me like it should have.

    A movie like Rogue One has the structure of movies like The Sevel Samurai or the Magnificent Seven, or even Oceans Eleven. You have to quickly introduce your "team" and there's not a lot of time to really go into their stories. But it's very important that the audience quickly gets the feel of each character and grows attached to them. This is not easy to do, and Rogue One mostly failed in this department for me. The actress who played Jyn had some of the weakest performances in the movie, but I really don't think they gave her much to work with. The story and the director failed her I think. Whether the reshoots harmed this or were trying (usuccessfully) to fix this is something I would love to know.

    TFA had problems, but I LOVED the characters. Rey, Kylo, and especially Luke were fantastic characters and I felt for each one of them. If I am invested in the characters I can forgive a lot from a movie.

    Edited because "IMO opinion".
     
    #55 stencil, Jan 10, 2018
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  16. Bargwill Tomder

    Bargwill Tomder Rebel Official

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    For me it fulfilled that potential completely, and that is exactly what I love about it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2018 ---
    I agree with you here. It's just for me, those problems loom large.
     
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  17. stencil

    stencil Rebel General

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    Glad you enjoyed it! The suspense is extra tricky when you know what the outcome is going to be. In a case like this one where it's pretty clear everyone's going to die, you have to make the audience love the characters in order to sell the inevitable. Now I am not a fan of the movie Titanic, but I have to admit that James Cameron understood this. I'm guessing the directors of Rogue One understood this too, but just didn't get it to click. If you know a character is going to die but don't care about the character, well then you feel like I felt. The movie was well executed on some levels just left me feeling cold.

    But you know what? All this Rogue One talk has got me feeling like giving it another watch.
     
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  18. Talon Karrde

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  19. NotQyteNeo

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    I didn't realize you were a member of the forum Mr. Edwards. :) j/k

    Agreed, and well said!!
     
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  20. ralfy

    ralfy Clone Commander

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    I get this feeling that RO was not meant to make protagonists likeable but to show the dreary costs in defeating the Empire and that behind the lore of the Force, the swashbuckling lives of characters like Han Solo, Mary Sues like Rey, and the politico-economic tensions in PT are combinations of terrorists, criminals, and outcasts who somehow come together to do the dirty job. With that RO succeeded to a point that it exemplified not Seven Samurai but the ending, making it far different from many of the films in the same franchise.

    In contrast, TFA was essentially a rehash of earlier films combined with twists.
     
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