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Is Snoke to blame for Ben Solo turning against the Jedi?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Fuzzball, Nov 15, 2018.

?

Who's mostly to blame?

  1. Ben

    38.9%
  2. Leia/Han

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Luke

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Stinkie Snoke

    44.4%
  5. No one in particular

    5.6%
  6. Somebody else

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. The Force

    11.1%
  1. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i know some people say if it's not in the movies than it doesn't count, but it's pretty clear from the EU that Ben's motivations are highly emotional, yes, but also political. generally speaking only Snoke is ever referred to as a villain in almost all of the EU material. Ren (and Hux surprisingly) are both described/portrayed as fanatical, but righteous ~ not intentionally evil.

    it's also fun to remember that the Resistance is a non-sanctioned splinter group operating covertly with no open support from the New Republic, while the First Order started out a sanctioned military "peace-keeping" operation. we see RenBen struggle with the decision to destroy the Hosnian system, to kill his father, etc. (again, this is all much more striking in the EU material than in the film), and we know he feels like he's made such bad choices up until this point that it's now too late to turn back (he says as much in the film to Han). it's easy for us to say: well duh, make good choices now, you idiot. but that's not how it works when you're this deeply manipulated into believing in a cause. RenBen believes in the mission of the First Order. he also knows Snoke is bad. he spends the whole first two movies struggling to reconcile these two things.

    i think Ben has made terrible choices based on fear and anger, but i don't think he's necessarily been just completely selfish.
    as an audience we all don't agree on what he means when he says he'll finish what Vader started.
    after he and Rey defeat the Praetorian, his objective is not glory and celebration: it's the shocking recognition for him that maybe he can burn it all down and try to make it better. he's wrong, of course. but he wants the same thing as everyone else. he's just going about it in the worst possible way imaginable.
     
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  2. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    I think Ben had hit his turning point before Luke went to his hut that night.

    Luke would not have had a serious thought of doing such a thing to his nephew unless Ben was truly beyond repair internally. I know Leia felt darkside currents briefly in Ben while she was pregnant, so Snoke could have been reaching out to Ben then or Ben could have been a vessel for the darkside naturally. He had good in him but it seems as if he always some darkside internally his whole life before committing to it.

    Alternatively.....lets say Ben could have been stopped from turning to the darkside


    If Ben truly was stoppable from turning to the darkside, then I don't think Luke would have consciously go to his hut with an intent to kill him.

    I have a theory that during Luke's time training the new generation of Jedi, that Snoke was trying to reach out to Luke from across the galaxy and distort Luke's mind. Apparently Snoke was signaling Palpatine through the force, so why would he not be able to do the same to Luke?
    i think Snoke may have been able to briefly possess Luke's mind and force him to confront Ben. Because you see Luke immediately snap out of it and shutdown his saber. He seems to realize that something took over him fully to do that and it was Snoke. Luke was strong enough to break Snoke's possession before he struck Ben.

    This theory I have also explain why Luke closed himself off from the force, to avoid Snoke's overwhelming influence on him.

    In closing, I think Luke was literally not in control of his body or mind when he was in Ben's hut. I think Snoke briefly possessed him, and knew that this deception would cause Ben's turn to the darkside.
    That's just a theory of mind and could be totally wrong. I'm sure I am not the only one who thinks this.
     
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  3. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I've had thoughts along these lines too. It's hard for some of us to accept Luke's depiction in those flashbacks and I think this is us trying to find some sort of balance or peace with the idea. At this point I don't know if we're seeing through a veil that was set before us by JJ, RJ and company, if we're deluding ourselves by creating head canon or if the backstory wasn't thoroughly agreed upon or thought out and it's morphing as we go.

    At this point all I can say is that it's possible. It could also be completely wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with speculating, lets just not marry ourselves to the idea at the exclusion of any other. Keep the possibilities open and hopefully they come up with a satisfying conclusion.
     
  4. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    I agree. Some theories are just crackpot crazy (like most of the Snoke theories).

    but when looking for an explanation in Luke's actions I think that him being possessed is one of the only 2 reasons. The other being he just f**ked up.

    I have thought of the "Snoke possesed him" theory for a while. I havent adopted it as head canon because I want to wait for more explanation to everything, which perhaps Episode 9 will somehow provide.

    But seriously , if Rian Johnson literally thinks it's "in character" for Luke to purposely ignite the saber over Ben, then he is the deluded one. Lol
     
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  5. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Movie tells you just the opposite. The only intent Luke had was to look into Ben's mind. It's what he sees in it that incites his weakness, the way Vader incites it when mentioning Leia at the end of The Return of the Jedi. He pummels Vader, the man he came to save, with everything he has. But, unlike in RotJ, he catches himself immediately, yet it's too late, Ben's awake and naturally think the worst. The temptations don't stop just because you conquered them once. or because you are older or Jedi Master. The entire Jedi Order was swayed by the dark side. And Luke is alone, without support, trying to raise a new generation of Jedi. Seeing death and destruction in his own nephew? Talk about the perfect storm for temptation. 100% in character.
     
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  6. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    I get where you're coming from but it's still troublesome for me.

    In ROTJ, hes fighting DARTH VADER and has to win or he will die and possibly the rebellion. To be incited by Vader and act on it isnt necessarily a problem when you're in the middle of a duel with him.

    In TLJ, hes incited by Ben.. but Ben is still a little boy and no ones life is currently on the line.
    And Ben is asleep.

    Two totally different scenarios
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2018 ---
    And Luke is alone, without support, trying to raise a new generation of Jedi. Seeing death and destruction in his own nephew? Talk about the perfect storm for temptation. 100% in character

    I totally agree, it's a lot of weight to shoulder obviously. Especially when Ben's parents sucked at raising him, which puts more pressure on Luke.

    But I think Luke could have reacted a little better, and not reacted like a bipolar psychopath.

    Luke is not a Psycho which is why it feels out of character
     
  7. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    When looking at the various reasons implied in the movies regarding why Ben turned, my honest opinion is that none of the reasons is convincing and his character just seems totally arbitrary.

    Blaming Snoke doesn't really answer the question for me, because Snoke just came out of nowhere and has no backstory. They gave the reason a name, but they still didn't explain the reason.

    Blaming Luke doesn't work well for me either. First, it's disappointing to me that they depict a beloved character as being a failure who is contemplating murdering his nephew. Second, if Ben really was a good guy prior to that one incident, he should have given Luke a chance to talk things out rather than just making an instantaneous 180-degree turn. Third, the Luke explanation relies on the Snoke explanation. Luke's reason was that he sensed what Snoke had done to Ben. So Luke only did what he did because of what Snoke did, and Snoke did what he did because... ????

    I can't go with blaming Han and Leia either. They are both legendary characters known for making good choices, and it doesn't make sense to me that they would just be lousy parents for no reason. They would at least have to explain what went wrong for this idea to have any weight.

    Although Anakin made a wrong choice, his motivation was very clear and was convincing to me. In my opinion, this is not the case with Ben.
     
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  8. JediMasterRaspberry

    JediMasterRaspberry Rebel Trooper

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    Snoke manipulated (according to Leia and Ben) Ben but people are still responsible for their own actions and decisions.

    Ben seems of the opinion that his parents let him down yet it seems that Leia sent him to Luke because neither she nor Han "could reach him". `so it seems there was something not right in him by then.

    It is really just a copy of Anakin's story and I'm surprised that isn't brought up more or that nobody has said this to Abrams in interviews, however Anakin's worked in the Original movies because the background was a complete mystery AND works in the Prequels because it is explained.

    Kylo Ren's fall is neither mysterious nor explained and while Driver gives a great performance, Ren himself is just a pale copy of Vader, and the First Order is just the Empire (with better skills and cooler stuff).

    I think Abrams and Kasdan did a fantastic job with creating new characters and capture the feel of a Star Wars adventure but the took the quick easy path of using bad guys that people would see on posters and say "oh that's Star Wars"
     
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