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Is the Force a deity?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    This was a question never asked in the OT because it seemed impossible.

    In the PT that door was opened when Anakin was born from the Force.

    Now in the ST the Force apparently has Will to imbue someone and awake from some type of slumber. It also seems to have an interpretation of good and evil.

    This isn't completely new, there were (was? maybe just one I forget) a few episodes in clone wars that dealt with personification of the Force. It being a cartoon, despite it being canon, I didn't take it too seriously. But now...

    I had always envisioned the Force as being some sort of Mana that people who understood how to make it work can use (for good or ill). Now it seems to have more to do with faith than knowledge. Most people's explanations on Rey's abilities seems to reflect that.

    So is the Force a fantasy deity (deities)?
     
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  2. JarJar

    JarJar Guest

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    It is all encompassing so either it’s a word for GOD or an energy field.
     
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  3. dudebrohomie

    dudebrohomie Rebel Official

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    Yes
     
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  4. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    No.

    "It's an energy field created by all living things*. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." - Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    *all living things: "Midichlorians are a (symbiotic) microscopic life form that resides within all living cells." - Qui-Gon Jinn.
     
    #4 SKB, Jan 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  5. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    idk, but if they wanna go this route in IX they should get George Lucas for a cameo as this "force fantasy deity" .;):p
     
    #5 Josh, Jan 20, 2018
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  6. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    no
     
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  7. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Yes. Here is the anwser. This is what is the force to me.
    No gods please.
     
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  8. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    The Force was more like a God in Legends. The Force stripped the Rakata aliens ability 2 use the Force cuz they was becoming evil.
     
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  9. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Of course Force is deity.

    It offcially has its own will.
     
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  10. Ruralfarmboy

    Ruralfarmboy Jedi General

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    To answer the Question Asked ?

    Nope.

    The Force Belongs To NoOne.

    Luke, himself, TOLD Us that.

    It Is In The Story.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    The Force is like Chi or Karma.
    It's not a deity.
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Yes and no. Mostly no, but somewhat yes..."from a certain point of view". ;)

    The Force is, as Lucas designed it, a combination of all life force in the cosmos; which is conceptually divided into two parts. The communal energy of living things around you, and the sum force of the universe's life (somewhat used loosely, because things we don't often think of as living are at times lumped in - stars, and planets for example).

    It's easier to think of it as if you are a cellular organism inside of a large body and the immediate organisms around you are the communal force, and the sum of all organisms in the body is the force of the universe itself.

    Will is a bit odd to many, but that's actually not odd for a pseudo-sentient concept of a Taoist type of universal life force.
    Keep in mind that the creation myth of the universe in Chinese mythology relates to and influences Taosim and contains sentient styles of activity revolving around the constitution of the universe laying dormant in chaos as an egg until ready, and then hatching into existence once ready, splitting into three, yin, yang, and Pangu (or Pan Ku, depending on where you look).
    Inside of the incubation was chaos, not yet balance between Yin and Yang. Once they were balanced in the egg, Pangu awoke out as well and used himself/itself to keep Yin and Yang separate until he (Pangu) died, upon which his various parts became parts of the universe (rivers, land, the Milky Way, the stars, the Sun, etc...).

    The link to Taosim is pretty strong in Star Wars' Force, such as Qigong, which in Taoism takes on the ideas of being a path to spiritual enlightenment through closer communion with the natural world.

    It's not so much about a direct personified will, like a Western deity, but instead more of the will of the universe, as can be seen in Taosim, where the will is somewhat blurred in interpretation between our Western ideas of "want" and "causality" somewhat stirred around into a mix.

    Sometimes in (bad) physics lessons at schools, you'll hear a teacher describe inertia like, "An object at rest wants to remain at rest...etc..."

    This is kind of similar to the idea of the will of the universe in Taoism - there is a want, and you can commune with this force of the natural world, but it's not to be thought of as a singular willful, sentient, and separate entity like a deity.

    The only way that you could squeeze a deistic view into Taoism is obscurely through thinking of the entire universe as the body and the collective consequential need as the will.
    Like saying that a fever is the body wanting to get rid of a sickness, tiredness is the body wanting sleep, etc...

    So the Force is something along these lines in a mythical sense. It has a will and a want, but don't think of it in the terms of Western deistic terms where the creator or governor of reality is separate from the creation - no, it is one in the same thing.

    In the Force, we are part of the will of the Force as much as the flower, the microbe, the atom, and the quark.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #12 Jayson, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  13. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I think fact that we have to ask and that there those who have a different answer says a lot about the quality of the films.

    To officially answer it would depend on how you wanted to define deity.

    Though I will say that since Disney has had the reigns I believe the FORCE has shown more "providence." In the films and in Rebels there are times were there previously mentioned "Will of the Force." Is seen not just referred to. In Rebels and in TLJ random animals "lead the way." It has been subtle but the convenient coincidences have a degree of purpose to them.
     
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  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Google is my friend.

    Season 3 episode 16 "Altar of Mortis" of Clone Wars seems to personify the Force. The best I know is that Clone Wars is canon.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Altar_of_Mortis_(episode)

    I know it's a wiki, but it sums up the episode pretty much as I remember it.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the force being gods. It means Jedi are more futuristic mythical clerics than futuristic mythical wizards (clerics get their powers from a higher power: either through faith or by fulfilling the will of said deity, while wizards learn how to use mystical energy, often called mana in much of fantasy, which gives them power and abilities others don't have, both are often referred to as magic, although a more specified term for clerics are divine favors and intervention).

    @Jayson
    I like your definition, but I'm not sure, based on that episode of Clone Wars (and so far in the ST) that it fits with what Disney and LFL are going for now. That said, if the Force is more a deity that grants powers I would be more at peace with Rey's progression. On the flip side, I preferred the force as Obi-Wan explains it in ANH.

    I like the discussion though. Opinions seem to be pretty varied.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2018 ---
    I always loved Obi-Wan's explanation of the Force. Though now with recent events and Clone Wars being canon, I wonder if Obi-Wan was preaching by wrote stuff he had learned at the Jedi Academy. So he believes what he's saying, and it mostly works, but maybe it's not quite accurate in reality?

    I'm not making any definitive answers, I'm just curious to see peoples answers. I think how one views the Force might have a lot to do on peoples ability to suspend disbelief or liking the ST or Rey. If the Force is something God given, then Rey becomes more plausible imo. If the Force is an understanding of a natural power that requires practice and trial and error and understanding, then I have more issues with Rey.

    When the Force was initially explained to me as a kid, it was explained to me as something like magnetism or gravity, but before people understood how those natural phenomena's worked. So someone before or around the stone age might be amazed that one can push a loaded flat object down a hill of snow and it apparently moved on its own. Or someone understanding that gravity will pull his spear down once thrown so he compensated by throwing it higher if his target is further.

    That was my head canon, put in there many years ago, but now I have to question if this is what GL intended or not.
     
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  15. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    That's actually what I meant by it not being either one, but a bit of both and why I roped in Pangu, but I should have gone further.
    Taoism also includes the Chinese myth of the Three Pure Ones who are the pure manifestations of the Tao.
    They each govern, by being of it/being it, a slightly different aspect of the fundamental forces of the universe, and are themselves governed by the fundamental law that "The Tao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things."

    This is also not seen as contradictory to Pangu, or Yin and Yang - for example, the Yin and Yang were separated by one of the Three Pure Ones.
    But keep in mind that many Taoist perspectives wouldn't see this as exclusively a separate entity style of concept - keep in mind, the Three were from the Tao, as all things are.
    All is the Tao, and the Tao is all - but that doesn't mean there aren't levels to the metaphysical dimensions of the universe. ;)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  16. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    After re-reading your posts a few times it makes a certain kind of sense. Maybe a little complex for the target age group of SW (people say somewhere around 12), but I do think I remember GL referencing this very generally before. Maybe it's my Western culture that gets in the way. I can't say I'm all that well versed on Eastern religion and faith systems.

    So if this is in fact what GL intended, then SW really needs a live action TV show with a Jedi/padawan relationship to expand on it. I'd say include it in a movie, but I don't think a movie is the right medium, nor is it long enough to give a thorough enough explanation. I'm not sure where that leaves me with Rey or the ST or even SW in general. I had a lot of head canon, 20+ years worth that had me liking SW for something I possibly (potentially, probably) misunderstood from the beginning. I really loved that version of SW, this one I'm not so sure about.

    I don't think it'll come that I hate SW, but more that I'll have to re-assess it among my sci-fi and fantasy fixes. Once again, thanks for your take on things.
     
  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Well...it is and it isn't.

    The only really solid thing Lucas desired to convey as a message with the Force was, basically a modification of the age-old Golden Rule: take care of others, and the environment because there's no difference between you and everything that's not you - ultimately.

    Everything else is fluff for the story.
    And yeah, it's based on Taoist concepts, but it goes way off tangent in obscure ways and does its own thing.
    For one thing, Taoism doesn't really have a good and evil. Instead, as soon as you label something as good, you - by naming - inherently create evil.
    So there's no real such thing like in Star Wars of bad and evil forces that you have to watch out for; that threaten the moral goodness of a person.
    If you were to say that to a Taoist, they would just understand that you have created an evil for yourself and a target good, but perhaps you have done so poorly and there may be the core of your problem.

    So I bring up all of the Taoist things it does because it's clear that the creative people behind the Force of the years has been tapping on concepts in Taoism, but it's definitely its own thing.

    Originally the Force was a consequence of Lucas being a product of the 60's; grabbing half-ass to Eastern mysticism as conveyed by fanfare religious movements of the 60's which caused all sorts of ... interesting Westernized interpretations similar to the Force in Star Wars...like, oh...this one from the US Government.

    Mostly, it's a grab-bag to whatever, and the root for that grab bag is Eastern mysticism with a Western morality spin.
    So if you need to do something new with the Force, or take it in a new way, etc... which is pretty common to do in every film (do something new with it), then you reach in there and see what you can spark an idea off of and run with it.

    The cool thing is that Star Wars really does leave most things rather vague so you can definitely take it however you want - Obi Wan's views are still preserved perfectly well even with the Clone Wars. ;)

    One of the aspects about Star Wars' Force that I think is really cool is that it's like religion itself - everyone is free to interpret it however they would like, because ultimately, like the Cave's, your interpretation speaks more about you than the Force.

    The day that everyone starts fighting over what is and isn't the Force and by doing so creates divisions among the fans is the day that the point has been entirely missed; that's the exact opposite of the point. We are all in this boat together, and however you need to see the boat and your place in it, is what you need to be who you are in your place in the bigger picture. So go for it and don't lose yourself along the way.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #17 Jayson, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  18. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I agree with the idea it being too complex and not too complex. Basically when a kid it seems easier to just enjoy the pew pew, snaphiss ect... as you get older you listen more to the dialogue and pick up different things. I guess Shrek's explanation of Ogres to Donkey applies to SW, it's layered like an onion.
     
  19. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Yeppers!

    This is an oooold way of writing.
    All of the old myth tales are layered.
    In fact, one interesting practice in the Galilean region and period was to have an orator and then have elders walk around to those who rose their hand and help with their questions while the orator continued.
    Point being that it was assumed that people would hear the same things and at some point have more questions because they thought of something new upon hearing things again.

    Lucas has talked about this and purposely building layers into the films; even saying that he put some things in just for himself that no one else would likely ever notice.

    ;)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #19 Jayson, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  20. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    It has its will.

    Gravity, other laws of universe, other principles as well as karma concept as well as any concept of energy has no its own will.

    The Force (great Tide) is canonized as having its own will, and is is by theologic definition a deity.

    Force is not a Law of universe, force is a Law - maker.(principle behind the existance of universe).

    Lucas has used elements of all major religions thus Force has property of energy that binds, and buddhist teachings to, but as a sum of all its properties and manifestations,and in theologic view above all of this properties stands a fact that Force has its own independent will and considering universe is a Law-maker .

    Deity-inevitable.
     
    #20 McDiarmid, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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