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Is The Last Jedi about reality helping same versions of itself to be the same style of co-existence?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Trokanmariel, Dec 24, 2017.

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  1. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    Is The Last Jedi an exploration of a reality treating different parts of the same overarching reality as identical to itself, as a way to organise a style of unification that's universal?
     
    #1 Trokanmariel, Dec 24, 2017
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  2. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    No actually I think The Last Jedi in and of itself actually proves that the overarching reality is indeed identical, and it is through the many and varied perceptions of the viewers that this movie exists in its own reality......
     
    #2 Lock_S_Foils, Dec 24, 2017
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  3. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    The overarching reality would be the universe. The universe features identical within it, which then has to mean that the universe is not identical.

    Difference is possession of identical. The reality within the universe is then anti possession of identical. Anti possession of identical is non-possession of identical

    Non-possession of identical is separation to identical

    The universe is identical to identical

    Identical to identical is identical moving toward identical

    Identical moving toward identical is abuse.

    The reality within the universe is identical moving away from identical

    Identical moving away from identical is difference moving toward difference

    Difference moving toward difference is not abuse

    Moving toward difference is not moving difference

    The reality within the universe is difference that doesn't move difference

    Difference that doesn't move difference is reality that doesn't influence reality

    The Last Jedi is the pattern of reality not influencing reality:

    Luke doesn't influence Rey
    Kylo Ren doesn't influence Rey
    Poe doesn't influence the resistance
    Snoke doesn't influence Kylo Ren
    Kylo Ren doesn't influence Hux
    Luke doesn't influence the battle on Crait (he isn't really there)
    Rose and Finn don't influence DJ

    The First Order fleet spend the film trying to influence the resistance, but don't

    TLJ is full of symbolism
     
    #3 Trokanmariel, Dec 24, 2017
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  4. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Point for point:

    Luke influences Rey in many ways: most indirectly, the existence of Luke has lead Rey eventually to where he is, and her Force experiences on the island influence her character. Rey now has the Jedi manuscripts, clearer insight into the Force, and a stronger realization she has to step up as a potential master of the Force in order to give the Resistance the support it desperately needs against an enemy lead by someone so powerful with the Dark Side.

    Poe influences the Resistance in many ways: most negatively, he is responsible early on, through his disobedience to return, for major losses on the Resistance side. He is also headed for higher leadership, if all goes well. As the "best pilot," he will have more opportunities to prove his worth, even after the crucial victory he helped the Resistance attain in The Force Awakens.

    Snoke certainly influences Kylo: Kylo is Kylo greatly in part that Snoke has influenced Kylo since before birth and is an active contributor Kylo's state of mind. If Snoke had no (negative or positive) influence on Kylo in TLJ, Snoke might not have met such an early end.

    Kylo does influence Hux, not only in directing him to target Luke but also, later on, to assume the position of Supreme Leader, even as Hux momentarily asserts otherwise in light of Snoke's situation.

    Luke most certainly influences the battle in a decisive way: at the very least, his mere presence buys the Resistance just enough time to escape and gives him a chance to confront his former padawan one last time. Beyond this, this very act of standing alone, as a Jedi, against the First Order is already shown to inspire the next potential generation of Jedi in the galaxy. Luke's legend is even more amplified through this ultimate act of Force projection.

    Rose and Finn's very plan gone wrong, through betrayal, gets DJ his reward. DJ is more affluent directly because of Rose and Finn's actions.
     
    #4 JediMasterRobert, Dec 24, 2017
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  5. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    Luke fails to influence Rey the way he wants to influence Rey. Kylo Ren has to physically intimidate Hux. Rose and Finn don't get DJ to stop being corrupt. Snoke doesn't influence Kylo, because if he did then Snoke would still be alive
     
    #5 Trokanmariel, Dec 24, 2017
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  6. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Even Luke's apparent failure to influence Rey influences Rey even if she believe she is not apparently influenced the way Luke intended. Influence happens even without intention.

    Hux is Hux is now Kylo's subservient .

    Getting DJ to stop being corrupt was as much as Rose and Finn's plan as to get him wealthy or as much as their plan to be found by the First Order or as much plan to go to Canto to ride horses.

    Snoke is not alive because even though he did not appear to influence Kylo he did because he created in Kylo the wish to turn against his master and gave him reason to turn against his master even though Snoke did not appear to try to get Kylo to turn against his master or else Snoke would still be alive.
     
    #6 JediMasterRobert, Dec 25, 2017
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  7. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    Snoke didn't influence Kylo the way he wanted Kylo to be influenced. Luke didn't influence Rey the way he wanted Rey to be influenced. Finn and Rose don't influence DJ the way they want DJ to be influenced - yes, characters make decisions, but it's the consistent pattern of TLJ for characters to make decisions in spite of other characters
     
    #7 Trokanmariel, Dec 25, 2017
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  8. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Influence arises nonetheless in spite of all decisions.

    Indecision yields influence as well.

    Amazing how the pattern designs itself.
     
    #8 JediMasterRobert, Dec 25, 2017
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  9. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    The pattern is that all the characters in TLJ are the same identity: the inability to get other characters to do what they want those other characters to do, which is meant to illustrate the metaphor that in order for the universe to be connected it's necessary for all elements of the universe to be treated with indifference by all other elements
     
    #9 Trokanmariel, Dec 25, 2017
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  10. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    It could be said the universe is the sum of a causalities.

    As for getting others to do what you want them to do: that is never any particular gauge of power or change.

    Like programming a computer or conversing with a better-than-average bot: one can attempt to abide by a certain usual pattern or syntactical protocol while the resultant influence of the said dialogue can diverge widely from intention of either speaker or refute it even under the best intentions by either or both speakers.

    Individuals with discrete identities based on individualized experiences, memories, emotions, aspirations, intelligence, etc., are never to be generalized.

    Archetypal patterns build throughout history and become apparent through multicultural awareness and things like comparative literature, mythologies, theologies, and so on.

    Such patterns often have something to do with repetitious history: the inability of any one particular society (always beginning with individuals) to learn from past mistakes and therefore giving rise to patterns of living, thinking, actions and reactions, and eventually themes in characters and belief systems which in turn can perpetuate or evolve in various instances or permutations century after century.

    Even a brainwashed Stormtrooper was once a child with its own mind and potential future.
     
    #10 JediMasterRobert, Dec 25, 2017
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  11. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    But I think the characters in the TLJ universe are indeed unique, however, it is ipso facto their perception of each other that can indeed appear to be contiguous. Getting characters to do what the other characters want is really just a metaphor for RJ’s last scene in the movie.
     
    #11 Lock_S_Foils, Dec 25, 2017
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  12. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    This is the single greatest post ever in history of the Cantina. Sadly, I do not have a button to designate it as such.
     
    #12 Lock_S_Foils, Dec 25, 2017
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  13. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    To go back to the original post: reality doesn't move reality

    Reality = X

    X doesn't move X

    X = inability to move X

    Inability to move X doesn't move inability to move X

    Inability to move = ability to stop

    Ability to stop X stops ability to stop X

    Ability to stop = stop ability

    Stop ability X stops stop ability X

    Stops stop ability X = stops inability X

    Stop ability X stops inability X

    Inability X stops inability X

    Stops inability X = inability stops X

    Inability X inability stops X

    Stops X = not stops

    Inability X inability not stops

    Inability X ability stops

    Inability X stops ability

    Inability X = divide between inability and X

    Divide = absence

    Between = self

    Not self inability X = anti inability X

    Anti inability X = ability X

    Ability X stops ability

    X = not ability

    Ability inability stops ability

    Ability inability inability ability = ability not not ability

    Ability not not ability = power is the equivalent of rejecting the absence of power

    Value is to reject no power

    Value is to reject equality

    Equality is the value of rejection

    Balance is the value of rejection

    In TLJ, the motif is the ability to reject.

    Leia reject's Poe
    Yoda rejects the tree
    Rey rejects Kylo Ren
    Holdo rejects Poe
    Rose rejects Finn (when she prevents his attack on the First Order on Crait)
    Luke rejects the lightsaber
    Luke rejects Rey
    Luke rejects the twin suns, by vanishing in front of them
    DJ rejects Finn and Rose
    Snoke rejects Rey
    Hux rejects Kylo Ren
    Leia is indifferent to Luke's presence on Crait
    Rey rejects Ach-To
     
    #13 Trokanmariel, Dec 25, 2017
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  14. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Yes....yes....I see it now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
     
    #14 Lock_S_Foils, Dec 25, 2017
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  15. CaptainPhastastic

    CaptainPhastastic Rebel Official

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    .....................wut?
     
    #15 CaptainPhastastic, Dec 25, 2017
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  16. Jedi_Tim

    Jedi_Tim Rebel Commander

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    The Last Jedi hidden Agenda, forget the OT heroes, they’re old failures. Check out these new shiney characters, seee how they failed trying to be like the OT hereos.
     
    #16 Jedi_Tim, Dec 25, 2017
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  17. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    I'm not exactly sure what your aim is. I must say this friend. It was beautiful.
    Wow! That is better then DC's (comics) Anti-Life Equation!
     
    #17 Darth Basin The Greatest, Dec 25, 2017
  18. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    The truth is the reverse: the OT characters were style over substance, especially Han and Leia and Darth Vader, and it's the new characters that are substance. Rey and Poe Dameron are astronomically more charismatic than any of the original characters
     
    #18 Trokanmariel, Dec 25, 2017
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  19. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    Well, things can definitely look quite differently when gazing through binoculars on the other side =)

    Also, subjectivity never does cease to amaze =)

    (c-3po)
     
    #19 JediMasterRobert, Dec 25, 2017
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  20. Trokanmariel

    Trokanmariel Clone Trooper

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    Thanks for the support. In all honesty, the idea of balance being the value of rejection is not actually sufficient - the idea is relatively boring. I think a better alternative would be to think of TLJ as a film that's about the idea that reality in the universe wants to connect the universe, realises that rejection needs to be universal - because otherwise rejection isn't fair - but doesn't want to actually be hostile.

    So in other words, individual parts of reality understand the need for everything to imitate hostility, but at the same time no individual part wants to be confrontational. If an individual reality needs to get other parts of reality to imitate hostility, individual parts are the message to imitate hostility

    The message to imitate hostility is the inability to be hostile. The ability to be hostile is the reception of the message to imitate hostility

    Hostility is to be told of the message to imitate hostility

    Imitate hostility is hostile imitation - hostile imitation is peaceful original

    Hostility is to be told of the message of peaceful original

    Hostility = receive message to peaceful original

    Hostility = possess message to peaceful original

    = possess message to original peace

    Possess message to original peace = control message to original peace

    Control = abuse

    Hostility = abuse message to original peace

    To original peace = toward original peace

    Toward original peace = toward copied destruction

    Abuse message = free non-message

    Hostility = free non-message toward copied destruction

    Toward copied destruction = original destruction

    Free non-message = non-message free

    Hostility = non-message free original destruction

    Original destruction = destroy original

    Hostility = non-message free destroy original

    Non-message = no hierarchy

    Hostility = equality free destroy original

    Hostility = reality prevent destruction of original

    Hostility = reality create safety of copy

    Hostility = copy create safety of copy

    Kylo Ren resists Rey, because Ren is a copy who refuses to create safety of other copies

    Poe Dameron resists Holdo, because Poe is a copy who refuses to create safety of other copies

    Luke resists Rey, because Luke is a copy who refuses to create safety of other copies

    DJ resists Finn and Rose, because DJ is a copy who refuses to create safety of other copies

    Kylo Ren resists Snoke, because Ren is a copy who refuses to create safety of other copies

    The cave resists Rey, because the cave is a copy (Rey's reflections) who refuses to create safety of other copies

    The twin suns resist Luke, because the suns are a copy who refuse to create safety of other copies

    Yoda resists the tree, becaue Yoda is a copy who refuses to create safety of other copies
     
    #20 Trokanmariel, Dec 25, 2017
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