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Is there a plan after all?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. ThisIsNoCave

    ThisIsNoCave Rebel Trooper

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    I think there has been a broadly conceived plan from the beginning. JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy have been at the heart of that, and the story group helps provide guidance. Even though we credit JJ primarily with THE FORCE AWAKENS, he also held a title of Executive Producer for THE LAST JEDI. Sometimes an EP title gets thrown around to someone who helps finance a film. But a real EP can have significant creative input into the movie. JJ was absolutely involved in the production of TLJ. He made comments on the script where he said that he wished that he had directed TLJ, and that shows that he was tapped into the script process. He may not have been credited as a screenwriter, but I would not put it past him to have submitted notes or some minor re-writes in his capacity as an EP of the Sequel Trilogy.
     
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  2. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I think they had a plan, and I think it went something like this.

    -We'll bring in 3-4 new characters. Leia and Han's son, Luke's daughter (later changed), a pilot like a mix of Han and Wedge, and a Stormtrooper convert.
    -So they don't get overshadowed by the OT heroes, we'll kill off Han (because Harrison wants out) and Luke has to go because if he stays he could steal the show.
    -Luke has to be handicapped for the same reason as above.
    -Leia never played a major role, so she'll be essential to bringing back Kylo in the 3rd movie, which will be her movie (as Solo was TFA's and TLJ Luke's) for one of the old heroes to shine.
    -We'll throw in old characters where we can, like R2, C3P0, Chewie, MF ect... to support the new heroes like they supported the old.
    -We'll need more villains, so Kylo needed help, so KoR, we need a big bad, so Snoke and let's throw in a Tarkin in Hux and Fett in Phasma. We'll modify them so they're not too similar.
    -They probably decided at the start whether Kylo is redeemed back to Ben.
    -Diddo for Rey.
    -Luke's and Anakin's old lightsaber would play a role, but possibly that role wasn't completely worked out.
    -Big fight at the end between the KoR, Kylo, Rey and Leia. This will probably have to be modified.

    I think that was about what they rode in on for TFA. A basic outline that they meshed out as the story evolved. I think there may have been other details, I think RJ probably had ideas before even seeing TFA (he did write his first draft before viewing it), like Holdo, Rose and other parts. I think RJ had very detailed ideas for what he wanted, but after TFA it became challenging for him to fit all those ideas into his movie. He found a way and it worked for some and didn't for others.

    I think a lot of what we've seen that doesn't make the list was modifications or impromptu. I think it's what keeps this question being repeated so often, because some elements were very much not planned, which leads some to assume that of the whole. I also think the further we go into the story, the more flexible and less detailed was the plan, except for the climax. Everyone wants to know the end and skips to the end of the mystery of the main plot. I don't imagine KK, RJ and JJ would be any different, not just as fans, but as creators they'd want to put in the necessary foreshadowing throughout.

    Edit: I just thought of a few things that I think they hadn't fully thought out.

    I don't think they fully thought out how not having a time jump would effect people's perception of things in this trilogy. It's a first for SW and I think that seemingly small detail may have a larger impact on the overall story then they anticipated.

    I don't think they had given Finn much more thought then his origins, being a renegade ST. I think they assumed it would come easily, and I'm pretty sure they probably thought about him starting a revolution. The problem is that idea without a time jump would not have felt realistic, which caused his somewhat unpopular arc in TLJ. Now I'm not sure that they can properly explore that with the KoR, Kylo, Leia and Rey needing to hash things out, because that will take a lot of screen time and I don't know if both those arcs can share that screen time for purposes of tone and information that needs to be delivered.

    I don't think Rey was thought out much at the beginning. I think JJ intended for her to be Luke's daughter as far as into production and then to RJ's suggestion that she's no ones and JJ liked the idea somewhere along the line of his making TFA. It could have even been a decision made in editing of TFA. I also don't think they fully anticipated how much Mark Hamill would take over his scenes.

    I do think out of the new characters arcs, Kylo's was the one they had most worked out. Everyone seems to be revolving around him, especially in regards to the new characters.

    I think the chase, Canto Bight, Poe/Holdo confrontation and eventual mutiny among others was not even thought of at the beginning concept. RJ, producing the middle film, simply had more leeway to tell his story, with probably only a few caveats on Luke, Kylo and Rey, bench marks they had to meet.
     
    #42 Sparafucile, Jan 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  3. JCooper1995

    JCooper1995 Rebelscum

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    This has been referenced before I'm sure, but when it comes to the "is there a plan?" debate, I feel like this is about as clear as it's going to get. From JJ's interview with WIRED, November 2015:

    Q. You can see how the universe gets so big so quickly, first toys and games and then Episode VIII and IX, with directors Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow coming aboard. I know VIII is Rian’s movie, but you’ve no doubt created story questions in Episode VII that have to be addressed. Do you know how the answers play out? Or are those moments still unspooling?

    "The script for VIII is written. I’m sure rewrites are going to be endless, like they always are. But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible. I showed Rian an early cut of the movie, because I knew he was doing his rewrite and prepping. And as executive producer of VIII, I need that movie to be really good. Withholding serves no one and certainly not the fans. So we’ve been as transparent as possible.

    Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process."

    There's been a plan since day one and I can't wait to see how this story concludes.
     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    It seems clear to me that JJ Abrams had a plan - and then Rian Johnson came along and completely disregarded it. But now thankfully JJ is back in charge so it is easy to believe he is bringing things more in line with his original plan.
     
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  5. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    At least he'll answer his own mystery boxes for a change.
     
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  6. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

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    Don't hold your breath...
     
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  7. Madmartigan

    Madmartigan Rebel General

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    I absolutely agree on that.
    Pretty clear there was a plan. The Wired interview is cool but between lines I think is also pretty clear that Rian wanted to follow his own way (I will not blame him for that, but stricted to the plan, the thoughts of this thread, probably he missed a couple of things).

    -"But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going." This statement doesn't imply Rian follow the preestablished keys. Of course I also can see that JJ gave some clues and ideas to TLJ story and he agreed with the script but I also can see some TLJ points not being very coherent with TFA facts.

    -"I knew he was doing his rewrite and prepping"
    -"Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story"


    In my opinion, (just mine, so I can be wrong) this 3 statements show clearly the plan was slightly forgotten and took other directions.
    -"in the direction that he felt was best "
    -"but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well."
    -"that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit"

    But I also think the plan is still there and JJ will give us a proper story and some TLJ aspects will be well tied.
     
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  8. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    You use that line to say RJ disregarded the plan? Wow!
     
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  9. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Well one must ask if they even had a rough outline? Colin Trevorrow wanted Luke alive at the start of 9 but RJ clearly had other plans.

    If three directors can't agree on the plot of a major sub-main character then it seems like there winging it.
     
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  10. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Maybe it was Colin who wasnt going along with the plan? And his argument to change TLJ wasnt well thought out. I said this a long time ago. I dont know if people recall, but TLJ was in the can (completely finished) 3 months before its release. JJ had already been picked and working on EP9. Had he wanted Luke alive and others agreed it would have taken what 1 day of reshoots. Just would have had Luke get off the rock and walk inside. That is all that would have been needed. They had plenty of time to do it. Who knows they may have even filmed that as an alternate. The point is LucasFilm chose not to do that and they could have.
     
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  11. Madmartigan

    Madmartigan Rebel General

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    Sorry, but yes, I see it in this line (in a tiny tiny part, like one-quarter portion) side by side with the others.

    And I have to say, I see it only in "that is very much" ;)
     
  12. Johnny Thunder

    Johnny Thunder Rebelscum

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    I hear this a lot from people, usually TLJ apologists. Personally, I was not disappointed that my theory didn't pan out but rather was disappointed that none of them were addressed or, if they were, they were glossed over or left ambiguous (such as Rey's parents being drunks). I won't go into each point of each mystery again because it's been beaten to death but I would have been OK if Snoke was from the outer rim or Plageuis or whatever but to just kill him off with no explanation as to why and how he was influencing Ben from a young age was very disappointing. I had no pet theory on him, I just wanted a good story to be told. I didn't know why Luke left his friends for an island and left a secret map but he did leave a secret map. He wanted to be found. I don't know why he was wearing jedi robes when Rey arrived but then went and changed clothes and said the Jedi must die. It made no sense with what we were given. I didn't have a theory on that which I was overly attached to. I just wanted Luke to be Luke and not Jake.
     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    "TLJ apologists" luls.
    Luke didn't leave a map. He didn't want to be found.
    They weren't glossed over, they were detailed as much as they needed to be. You find out exactly how damaged Rey is from her past. That's not glossing over.
    Snoke is irrelevant to the central story of the ST. Just like the Emperor, Jabba, Boba etc, were irrelevant to the central story of the OT but just there to provide antagonists for both sides. Their history and reasoning for what they do isn't going to change anything. It's superfluous.

    Luke was always based on Arthurian tales. This was, more or less, always Luke's destiny on film. Even Lucas had treatments and ideas where Luke was to be this broken, lost soul. Luke acted exactly like Luke would. But perhaps this is more your "Luke not Jake" speed:

     
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  14. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    I don't agree that all the new characters are just knockoffs of Luke, Leia, Han, and Anakin.

    Because they also ripped off Palpatine, Yoda, and R2D2. :D
     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    If you leave a map, people dont need to search for the map. Han said the people that know him best believed he went to find the 1st Jedi Temple. So the people went to find a star map that would lead them to the 1st Jedi Temple where they believed Luke went. If Luke wanted to be found he would have left a way for his sister and/or best friend some way to communicate with him.
     
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  16. Steven Lewis

    Steven Lewis Clone Commander

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    I love it when a plan comes together.
     
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  17. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    Well, I'll wade in here...even though it's admittedly off-topic.

    Mostly replying to @Johnny Thunder and (a bit) to @RoyleRancor; Either Luke or someone left a map, because the Resistance had a holo-map with a missing piece which seemed to denote a path that Luke had taken when he bounced out of the picture....and R2 had the missing/removed part of the puzzle. SOMEONE left that for them, and intentionally removed a piece...so yes, there was a map...which seemed to make no sense to me for someone that "didn't want to be found".

    Also, while I care about Snoke about as much as Boba Fett (which is less than minimal) I would've more liked to hear a snippet about where Snoke came from considering his position, but I do expect that that's to come, probably in the form of a novel or two.

    Finally, @Johnny Thunder DID mention something that went right past me; Luke WAS wearing Jedi robes when Rey first encountered him....then none thereafter...what IS up with that???

    Anyhoo back to the subject, we have to keep in mind that RJ didn't just run off on his own when he made this movie and kill off Luke "because he wanted to". Again, there is NO doubt that there was an outline at the outset of this movie, and while there were creative decisions made on RJ's part, you also have to remember that as the director, he's STILL a contracted employee of the studio, and THEY will have the last call...not RJ, and if he killed off Luke, it was with their full blessing.

    There are too many people that seem to believe that RJ just "robbed the bank and escaped" making this movie, but be sure that there were NO hard right turns made without the consent of those paying him...none.
     
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  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    To be clear R2D2 had the main part of the map. Poe got the missing piece from Lor San Tekka. So if anything Luke ripped out the missing piece and put it somewhere so people couldnt find him.

    I have heard the issue of why was Luke still wearing Jedi robes. Please he wasnt going to run out and purchase a new wardrobe when he put himself in exile. Hell Obi-Wan wore Jedi robes in ANH. Now dont say that well that is because it was ANH and wasnt fully planned out. If that is the case why not represent what Obi-Wan as non Jedi robes and in the PT have him wear totally different clothing. Make Jedi robes not like what Obi-Wan wore in OT.
     
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  19. JCooper1995

    JCooper1995 Rebelscum

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    This isn't really the thread for this bit of info, but since we're discussing the robes:

    Someone asked Pablo about that one day, he said when Rey first finds Luke that he was about to do something and she interrupted him...when asked what Luke was about to do, Pablo said to recall the next time he wears them (when he goes to burn the tree). So at the end of TFA/beginning of TLJ, he was wearing the robes because he was trying to summon the will to burn the tree. When Rey arrived, he gave it up and reverted back to his hermit lifestyle. When she leaves, he finally thinks he has the nerve to do it, donning the robes again as he's about to perform the last Jedi rite, but Yoda shows up and...the rest is history.
     
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  20. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    This ↑↑↑ you are correct about...I was thinking later on, but still, yes. That being said, how and why did LST have the missing piece (which may never be answered) and R2 have the main chunk when he didn't want to be found...maybe just nit-picking, but it almost is a question that requires an answer.

    I think the specific question here is why when we first saw Luke, was he standing there wearing seemingly pristine robes, then change into something liken to a hobo...it was just weird.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 23, 2019 ---
    Ahh...makes sense.

    With that all being said, we should get back on topic, folks. :)
     
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