SPECULATION IX, Legacy, and Reylo Ramble

OK, I see what you mean. I did know what Reylo is, just that there are so many iterations of what it means to different people, I wondered what you meant by it in this particular context. Thanks for explaining that.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're thinking that Reylo, if the endgame, might produce children that would 1. undermine the message of the Force is for everyone if they are Skywalker Force users and 2. not end the Skywalker story.

For the first idea, I'll start with Reylo itself. I don't think it's an inherent part of Reylo that they have biological children. Or that the little Reylo space babies would even be Force sensitive if they did exist--the Force isn't necessarily hereditary, though it can run in families. I don't think that's the primary point of Reylo. In the marketing buildup to TLJ, we kept hearing about balance, balance, balance. (In fact, in TLJ we hear a lot about balance too, but the theme is almost entirely in imagery and subtext.) When I think of Reylo, this is what is means in its essence. Rey and Ben, the two halves of the protagonist (another marketing phrase we heard a lot), the yin-yang, need to work together to achieve the balance of the Force between them to fix what's wrong in the GFFA in the ST.

And as we saw in the OT with the death of the Emperor and the redemption of Anakin, once the metaphysical Force aspects of the story are resolved, everything else falls in line. So the point of Reylo is Ben and Rey themselves as vehicles of balance. To me, Reylo children are possible but not necessary to the story. What is important is that when the Force finds its balance, FS people like broomboy begin to take their place in this galaxy of renewed hope, which isn't limited to Jedi or Sith or Skywalker bloodlines.

For the second idea...I guess TPTB can make the Skywalker saga end whenever they want. If Rey and Ben don't have children, it ends there. If they adopt or have their own children, they can still end it there...or they can keep it going. My guess is they'll do it the second way, just to keep their options open. But who knows.

So there you go. I could be wrong and the Reylo children are who bring balance, but that's another story and a whole 'nother portmanteau to unpack.

 

I still don't get how we are talking bout "reylo" romantically. The only thing that Kylo did in TLJ was double-down on all of his evil traits and deeds. I believe that he will be redeemed, but he owes the galaxy a great debt for the incredible amounts of death and destruction that he has been a part of.

Leia was drummed out of politics when word got out that she was the daughter of Darth Vader. She hadn't even done anything wrong. Just her lineage, her bloodline left many to not trust her so much that she could not continue her career as a Senator. Redemption requires an undoing of what was done and/or a penance paid for it. A scenario where Kylo Ren is instantly absolved of his murderous ways and crimes against BILLIONS of beings in the galaxy is absolutely absurd.

He will be redeemed at a great cost, however continuting to entertain the idea of a reylo romance is absurd when he has an entire galaxy to answer to.

 

did someone actually say any of this?

Rey loving Ben does not mean the whole galaxy throws him a homecoming parade.
there's nothing absurd about the fact that they are clearly bonded, that the ST is about balance, and that they are two halves of a whole.

now whether that means a platonic responsibility to course correct the galaxy, a consummated love, or an endless bitter rivalry (for the nihilists and cynics), remains to be seen. the most dramatic choice is probably a steaming love story. but let's just see how it plays out.

for two years people said it was "absurd" that Rey would give him a second look after killing Han.

then this happened.



i'm just going to reserve judgment where it's not my place to judge.

 

Yes, that happened. He was preying on her. He's a predator, that is what he does. When they had their actual face-to-face moment, he chose to rule the galaxy by way of terror and galactic domination over her. He was again, emotionally abusive to her in hopes that he could make her feel like he was the only thing that could give her any meaning. Pairing them after all of the murder, genocide and emotional abuse isn't good drama.

 

i disagree in the strongest terms possible, but we're already been 'round on this argument.

you see terror and galactic domination and abuse. i see a dumb awkward kid who thinks he can stop all the bad things in the world by controlling them.
you see what you want to see in his "proposal", i'll see what i want to see. i empathize with Ben. you judge him.

and people in love in the midst of murder and genocide and emotional turmoil (i reject "abuse" outright here), is the actual stuff of real drama.

 

A dumb and awkward kid commits petty crime, probably dabbles in drugs, burns bridges and says a lot of mean things that he probably doesn't mean. Kylo is a mass-murderer. He's not out to save the galaxy, he's out to force it onto HIS vision of it. His vision that involves him ruling by violence and threat of aggression. If he's not murderous he's absolutely in need of permanent psychiatric help for psychotic impulses since his way of stopping all of the bad things in the world involves murder on a vast and personal scale.

I "judge" him by what he has done, it's not like I am making things up. He's literally murdered many people including his own father and ordered "no prisoners" on a group of combatants that included his mother. That's not even adding in his part in the genocide of billions of people and species in multiple star systems.

As for the abuse, if there was a video of me standing in front of my wife telling her that she means nothing, that she's a nobody, egging her on about her missing family and how she keeps looking for father figures and that I am what can give her meaning, who would watch that and not consider that to be emotional abuse?

 

again, that's your understanding of the character, it's not mine.
and it's not the view of people who are rooting to save this kid or thinking it's not a terrible thing that he and Rey figure it all out together.
and it's entirely possible to yell at someone in the heat of the moment without it being systematic "abuse".

so when you say things like "how can people want this?" it's because those people have a very different (and equally valid) perspective.

and if we're going to judge him for things he says and thinks but doesn't actually carry out, then we might as well judge Luke too. : o p

 

Luke did enough judging of himself for anyone and has paid that price. Luke, albeit reluctantly, copped to his shame and to his part in Ben's fall. It could easily be said that he has atoned for his mistake just as easily as it can be said that he can only be atoned when Kylo is redeemed, which I have already agreed will happen.

 

right. Ben's story is not done yet. so let's let the story play out and see what happens.
there's no point in saying he and Rey should never be together because he's unworthy.
that's true now. but they already made a whole lotta progress past TFA, so his "enlightenment" may still be coming.

here's a poor analogy, but i'm going to try to make it. Yondu is awful (objectively awful) to Peter Quill in GotG.
he's like an abusive murderous thieving father when we first meet him. then we find out he was protecting Peter from his actual horrible father (spoiler, ya'all).
he's still a terrible murdering thief, but we see humanity in him, and in the end he helps the good guys and gives up his life for this adopted son.
it's not the dying that makes him a hero, it's the state of his heart.

Ben's got Han Solo's heart (and Leia's too). hopefully he'll stop fighting that and have his own reckoning.
all the killing, etc., doesn't matter after the fact as far as Rey is concerned (and she's already moved on from him killing Han).

the point that TLJ makes is not to get hung up on the failures, the mistakes, but to grow from them.
Ben has made catastrophic ones.
but that doesn't mean his life can't still have peace and purpose (just like Luke).

 

That's actually not a bad analogy at all. Especially with the atonement that I feel is required for Kylo to come back to Ben. I don't mean to sound so harsh when I disagree with you, you have good points. When I reply contrary it's not me trying to invalidate you, it's just me doing my best to clarify where I stand.

I fully believe that he will be Ben Solo when Episode 9 closes and that he will have done something even more amazing than dropping the Emperor down into the Death Star's nuclear reactor. I believe that those closest to him will love him and forgive him, but I will still contend that he has a very large penance to pay to the galaxy at large. Most won't forgive him just as most would never forgive Vader.

Still, I am super-flexible when it comes to Star Wars. If JJ comes out in Ep9 and has Rey and Kylo run off to live happily ever after together, then I will likely adapt to it just like I have adapted to my other disappointments. It is not my story and I love this franchise.

 

it's all good. you want him to pay for what he's done and i don't disagree that he's done terrible things.
but i also feel like he's suffered a lot already (killing his own father is as much his crime as it is his punishment).
he didn't want to do that. he did it under the influence of someone whose heart is/was actually truly wicked.
but he did it. because he's weak and fearful. the hope is that his redemption makes him strong and courageous.

so yeah i am less keen on punishing him further (which would serve no purpose if the point of punishment is to correct).
he can't ever make up for the problems he's contributed to; he can only go forward and do good (it's all any of us can do sometimes, right?).

and what the rest of the galaxy thinks is irrelevant.
as you said before, they rejected Leia just for being the daughter of Darth Vader, so their opinion doesn't matter to me from a story-telling perspective. at all.
and if he's a galactic pariah to all but those closest to him, that's interesting too ~ we can see how it might have played out if Vader had lived, then.

: D

 

See, the thing for me is that Leia was judged even when she had no wrong to right, but Kylo HAS done the galaxy wrong in a major way. That is why I say that the galaxy does have a stake in the price that Kylo pays.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 18, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 18, 2018 ---

I am looking at it from a much wider point of view. Leia was shunned just because of her lineage. If word ever got out that Kylo Ren was Ben Solo, then all of that misplaced anger and distrust is all-but justified. Her Skywalker blood in her son committed atrocities that nearly dwarf Vader's. No Skywalker would ever be able to show their face in public again.

 

oh absolutely, i understand that distinction.
i'm just saying it's Ben's story, not "the galaxy's".
the people who have suffered at his hand, they absolutely have their own stories.
but their stories are not the ones Lucasfilm is telling right now.

and i totally get it: we should absolutely care about justice and i hope they do address this in some way that is satisfying and compassionate to all parties.
but ultimately, i'm fighting from the side/perspective of Ben's family/loved ones.

 

I'm still a full blooded member of my family on both my mother's side and my father's side even though I took my husband's name. Country of origin means nothing. Leia is a Skywalker even if she grew up on Alderaan, was raised an Organa to me. It's by blood. She's Darth Vader's biological daughter and it made a difference 20 some years later when her political career went down the tubes because of it.

 

Ahem, that's absurd!

 

FWIW, and I am not sure it fits any more with where this discussion has gone, but I strongly suspect that Episode IX will not be the end. Right now, I think one of the strongest indicators of that is what Disney has planned, and is actually building, at its theme parks.

"Star Wars Land," which does not open until shortly before Episode IX comes out, will very prominently include references to a strong and oppressive "First Order." "Star Wars Land" will be around a lot longer than Episode IX, so I believe that the First Order will still be the controlling force (no pun intended) at the end of Episode IX. And that Kylo Ren will continue as "Supreme Leader." My belief, which I think is supported by what someone noted from JJ Abrams earlier in this thread, is that the entire ST is the origin story for Kylo Ren, in much the same way that the PT was the origin story for Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader.

I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face, the fall of Ben Solo and the rise of Kylo Ren is what we should have received with Anakin/Darth Vader.

It is also why I cannot fathom that there will be a romantic Reylo plot or "Reylo babies" in the future... if so, it makes the empowered character of Rey just as pathetic as what Padme Amidala was relegated to in ROTS (i.e. dying of a broken heart... ugh!) This has nothing to do with the redemption of Ben Solo and the arguments for or against that... it has EVERYTHING to do with its lead protagonist, female character and what they will do with her. I agree with the poster above who suggested that the Reylo "hints" in the plot are nothing more than trolling fans of those theories.

No way in this climate of female empowerment does Disney go that way with this uber-profitable toy in its toybox.

 

palpay must still be alive because the empire was around literally a century(and ongoing) in legends and 30 years after his death in canon....that is a weak @ss arguement. also star wars land is a era neutral planet that can be used for future conflicts. no need for massive overhaul

 

Legends... are legends, not canon. (Incidentally, I think what TLJ did with the "legends," much like the book "Legends of Luke Skywalker," was masterful. The out-of universe "legends" stories were essentially brought in-universe as maybe-true or maybe-not-true legends or stories that in-universe characters have been telling about these same heroes. Brilliant way to tie the two creative concepts together.)

With regard to the "Empire" being around 30 years later in canon...


Just kidding.

I take it you have not read the full press releases on Star Wars Land, what it will contain, and what the First Order's role will be therein?

 

I think that there is something to this. In TLJ it was beaten over our heads that "When Darkness rises, so does Light to meet it.". The removal of Kylo Ren will by either redemption and a return to the light or by his defeat only create a void that will need to be filled to keep the balance and the cycle starts all over again. This is one of the reasons that Luke went into hiding. His presence in the galaxy creates a void of darkness that must be filled. When Luke disappeared and Kylo rose in power, Rey's destiny to be his equal popped it's cork.

This would also remain true for a Kylo/Rey romance. If one leaves their side of the line to join the other in romance, that only creates a void and the cycle is perpetuated again and each time this cycle happens, it happens at an absolutely devastating toll to the galaxy.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but it will be interesting to see.

 

The Big Crunch?

In all seriousness i do think Reylo is a tease & the "resounding grey, through refined Jedi sight" wont happen 2.

Changing gears....

I heard the RJ Trilogy will involve "SW Land" somehow assuming he don't get fired.