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SPECULATION IX, Legacy, and Reylo Ramble

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Use the Falchion, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    What did I say about the definition of feminism? It's in my original post, the one you just quoted.
    And yes, it's not all feminists. But it's MOST. And here is the thing: it's normal to have a handful of people who claim to be followers of a (supposedly positive) ideology but cause nothing but embarrassment (or worse). It happens. But when the ideology attracts bad elements in droves, you have proof that something is wrong with the ideology itself. And if you disagree with its bad aspects, you have to leave it for a better one, one that better reflects your personal beliefs. But if you choose to stay, it means that you agree with all its aspects. We don't get to cherry pick what we like and what we don't and claim that those we disagree with (within the same ideology) are doing it wrong. Not when they're the majority, and their practices ARE the ideology.

    I did the exact opposite in my post, read it again.

    What do you mean?

    No, there's no conflict there, and trying to make you see why would mean repeating myself. Which would be useless, because you see Kylo the way you want to and that's that. No complexity, no character evolution, nothing. Oh well.

    Not in these cases.

    Really? Because history redefined it as mass murder.

    Yeah, it must be. You know what would help their credibility? If they didn't sound completely ridiculous.

    All of them.

    Where did I say I agree with the article? I agreed with that's guy's (apparent) opinion on attraction, with the specific point I mentioned, that was all. I also said that depending on what he's actually trying to say, he might be an idiot. I didn't research what he's trying to accomplish, what his actual views are.

    Embrace him? lol

    They do. Attraction to power =/= submission. It does to some, but that doesn't mean they're synonyms.

    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing, I'm advocating "getting the hots for mass murderers". Eyeroll.
     
  2. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    @Dawn, the Hux comment was not directed at you. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

    As for feminists, well, we are just people... We are not perfect. Sometimes we get it wrong, react too negatively, go too far... But one thing is clear, call it feminism or call it gender equality, the pursuit of equal rights for all people in respect of gender is a good thing. The word feminism is used pretty negatively lately and I feel people misunderstand its history, its legacy and its value. Feminists are
    pretty attuned, and rightly so, to spot gender injustice or power imbalances, and sometimes see it in places where I particularly wouldn’t find them truly important or relevant. But still I’m aware that these feminists have their heart in the right place, and I will always try to understand their point of view and their sensitivities.

    I think your mistake, and that of many, lies in believing that feminists and their particular independent pursuits define feminism. The only thing one feminist has in common with another is their believe is gender equality, the rest is irrelevant to feminism. I will not discard a progressive way of thinking just because I don’t agree with the sensitivities of other feminists... I consider the arguments of those I don’t agree with, state my disagreement with them if required, and then move on, being just as feminist as I was before.
     
    #82 Kylocity, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    As I mentioned before feminism is definitely not in the eye of the beholder. All feminists are united by a same goal, however they as people with their own individual pursuits and sensitivities do not define feminism.

    I can’t talk for all Reylo fans but I particularly do not desire Rey to have any positive relationship with an unredeemed Kylo. That’s surely not too hard to understand. Kylo is a complex fictional character going through a personal journey. I hope this journey is from bad to good. I relate to his conflict and to the idea that people can change for the better, that love can encourage this change and that reformed individuals do deserve a chance to be loved. That’s a good message for young girls and boys, I think.
     
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  4. stephied

    stephied Rebel General

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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Also,I’m sure this wasn’t your intention, but to imply that Reylo fans are so simply because they are attracted physically to Driver’s good looks comes across as patronising and slightly mysoginistic.
     
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  6. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    Yes, the pursuit of equal rights is a great thing...in places where it's needed! Tell me, just what rights are feminists pursuing in the Western world, where men and women have equal rights and the law often offers more advantages to women? As for the history of feminism, it has been rendered irrelevant by the screeching harpies who took over the movement. The women who fought for equal rights are now turning in their graves.

    They do? Even those who want to eradicate men? Which, as you already know I'm sure, are not few.

    And where exactly did I say that "many"="most"? I see nothing has changed since you called Reylo shippers rape apologists, you're still going strong with the straw man arguments.
     
  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    @Dawn, @Kylocity: okay, let's keep on topic; we're not solving ideological differences of the world here.

    can we agree that "feminism" has been co-opted and that we just need to be careful about how we define the term for the purpose of our arguments in this context, please?
     
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  8. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    Sure.
     
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  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Of course, even though it pains me to leave the assumption that western society enjoys complete gender equality unchallenged...

    As we are talking about films I’ll just say this: women representation in the film industry is at 4%... nihil veritatis in aspectibus.
     
  10. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    That's very unfortunate indeed. We need laws that would allow women to study film and occupy more positions in the movie industry.

    Oh wait.
     
  11. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I have accused Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy of advocating the rape fantasy trope with the Reylo story arc in "TLJ". If you want to take it personal, fine by me.
     
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  12. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    You do realize that I could dig through all your posts (if I had nothing better to do) to find that one, right? Unlike you, I don't come up with awful things to say about people I know nothing about. So spare me. The funny thing is...When I replied to you on that post, asking you why were you saying that crap about people who might have been victims of abuse themselves for all you knew, you said NOTHING to defend your point. Because you knew that there was no way to defend that bull****. But now, months later, suddenly you can do it. Well guess what, I have good memory. But you're right on one point, you didn't say "rape apologists" (I just said that because it sounded better, less insulting and disgusting), you said we had rape fantasies. And you brought it up on your own now, congratulations.
     
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  13. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Loads of women study film. Point is producing companies tend not to fund films created by women. Lack of trust. The world is imperfect.
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    we're not having that here.

    you've already been told in the past to stop making accusations or insinuations of this stripe.

    as this topic is so disgusting to you, please stop reading about it and antagonizing others who are discussing it unless you have something new or thoughtful to bring to the conversation.
     
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  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I was just trying to defend a post I thought may have been misunderstood is all.
    I read your use of the word feminist here...
    ...as though it had quotation marks around the word as if to mean “so called feminists”.
    (I'd hazard anyone who calls themselves a feminist yet sees females as mindless automatons probably isn't much of one!)

    Anyway apologies if I misinterpreted things and hijacked the thread a little.
    I shoulda minded my own business. :oops:
    Great advice for those loose with the negative ratings too.
     
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  16. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    I didn't realise unoriginal was a negative. I thought it a yellow. You'd get an original if you posted Sney images ;)

    Unless it's been removed by another I can't find it. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
     
    #96 p03, Jul 20, 2018
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  17. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    No really. We use definitions to try to be a little more precise when discussing topics. History has not redefined communism as mass murder, it has just shown that it tends to go down that road a little too often. The definition of it hasn't changed much since Marx formulated his ideas. Yours is still just a "made up" definition, mistaking what you associate it with personally with what defines it and sets it apart.

    That is why @Kylocity understands in regards to feminism, and has tried to explain to you. Feminism is still feminism as defined, whether you associate it with people you do not like/agree with or not.

    You do have a point there of course, which leads me back to why feminism is problematic. Some feminists will see injustice or perceived inequality where there really is none, and will often disagree in how to reach their goals of equality. What is equality? When we have just as many millionair females as males? Just as many females in the film industry as men? Or just equal opportunity?

    One example is a islamist feminist I went to a lecture with, held by a feminist society. She advocated that Islam was a feminist religion, since it granted women rights in countries where they tended to have none. For example to be able to be divorced, not mistreated/beaten without consequence etc. Of course, she would also agree that men/boys should have more of the family inheritance, and that a woman's testimony could not count as much as a man's. (don't remember exactly how many females it took in legal proceedings to null out a man's testimony, maybe 3?) She saw equality as balance between the sexes, seperate, but equal. A woman had more rights in regards to getting a dowry, and having a special place at home resposible for the upbringing of the family, while the man had to have the burden of being a provider offsetting that. In this there were some dissent with a minority of the westen feminists present, but all in all the consensus was that the islamist was indeed a feminist. My point is that you could look at it many ways through a pretty loose definition.




    Perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss other women's experiences in life, and try to open your eyes to other perspectives. Especially when you must surely know that there are societies, sects and cultures, also very much present in the west, that do not afford women the rights or resepect they deserve. To me it seems like a very intellectually lazy mindset to just dismiss those voices.

    And yes, you should do your research on Julian Blanc. Feel free to call the man who wrote the article an idiot for lauding his courses and saying that women should be thankful for guys going to them when you have done so.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---
    Oh, but it was my intention, sorry to disappoint you.

    I I present three exhibits:

    A)

    kylo ren.png

    B)
    reactionskylo.png

    Read your eyes out here: https://www.buzzfeed.com/crystalro/...-need-jesus-or?utm_term=.yrj6rv13a#.fm7wYgGxE

    This is not a criticism of women. I critizise the filmmakers for putting it there knowing very well which effec it would hve. (Hell, I enjoy a well figured babe when I see one. But...I know why the filmmakers put her there, and that was not to try to appel to my better instincs)

    3) Looks matter in attraction. Even when dealing with terrible people.

    There's an interesting perpective in the link below. It definetely shows that women favour the most attractive looking killers. (You can Rank from Ramirez to Bundy...but even Fritzl is reported to get hundreds of love letters. Just...bad...the worst example of a man, and the worst example of women who love him for it) That is why I really do not like SW setting up Kylo Ren as a sexy love interest..they should never have gone there. We need movies that give us sound, strong male role models instead of throwing Kylo Ren at us as the sex symbol for young fans.


    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppvewv/serial-killer-twitter-teenage-girl-fans

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...ilia_us_5a131cf7e4b0bfa88c1c051e?guccounter=1

    Byt the way:

    Unfortunately, some women have a pattern of being attracted to very bad guys. And unfortunately guys tend on average to have less empathy then women. That's why we basically are behind most of the murders, rapes, genocides, thefts etc in the world. It's easier...both psychologically and physically. Both are in essence seens as pathological and wrong. That's quite a bit of biology that explains it, though should never excuse it. I do not like a movie that prey on it, and I will call it detrimental to women to send that message.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018 ---
    I appreciate you way at looking things here. You seem more forgiving. It's just not in my nature to see a redeeming quality in him, and I think it is a dangerous path to go down. Some women believe they can change a man as cruel and powerful as a mass murderer. Others “see” the little boy that the killer once was and seek to nurture him. That notion just gives us hurt, and in quite a few cases, dead, women all across the world, and has donse so through all time, and will continue in the centuries to come. Hoping it will be less with time...

    For a movie that tries to bring the galaxy far, far away closer to our world, I do not approve of the message. In real life, people like Kylo belong on death row or with a life term....not having Rey as a price or implying the possibility of a relationship. They try to be a family franchise after all.

    Well, this is a ship. I just see it as a plague ship. Sink it before the disease spreads :)
     

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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i couldn't disagree more strongly.
    i think the more dangerous message is "people like Kylo belong on death row" frankly.
    it's judgmental, it's dismissive, and it does harm to a community of people who understand Kylo's fear and anger and sense of betrayal.
    these are not people we should toss aside; these are people who need help.
    you want to stop men from hurting women? you start by healing the hurt in men.

    and while i agree that women should not think they can change terrible men and that can be a problematic thing in storytelling, i don't see that being the message in Star Wars (as i said before, i think that's an assumptive projection given Rey failed and rejected him, which is the right message).
    and if Ben can be saved, then it's a moot point because he'll save himself.
    after which, as i said before, this is a fairy tale. so anything is fair game.

    Star Wars' core message is reject evil, have compassion.
    but at the end of the day it's not the movie's responsibility to raise your children; that's the parents' job.
     
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  19. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    Mass murderers, war criminals, kidnappers etc. belong in the justice system. Some can not be reformed, only removed from society either through life imprisonment or death row. There’s no more second chances for guys like Slobodan, Saddam, Eichman, Osama etc then there are for Kylo due to the magnitude of their atrocitities. Eichman for example was executed, but he could surely have been reformed if you read the analysis of his mind. Perhaps life in prison is more humane then death, but the justice must be meted out. If not, we will lose faith in the institutions set to deliver it, giving rise to vigilantism and anarchy. And we forget the victims, whose voices are silenced and can no longer seek it for thenselves.


    The majority convicted of lesser crimes not on an industrial scale can be reformed, but not the psychopaths. You can’t heal the hurt in them...indeed, the only thing one can do is make sure they can’t hurt others again. Trying to help them will only make them worse.

    Even if Kylo did redeem himself some way, it would still be wrong to exonerate him and let him «get the girl». He had 0 redeeming characteristics, have never done anything selfless, and bears all the responsibility of his actions himself. In that he is unlike his grandfather...who would still have to pay in some way had he made it out from the death star. ROTJ ending removed those moral complications from happening...and I expect them to the same route with Kylo, redeemed somewhat or not.
     
  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    and some can.

    1. i am no one to judge.
    2. the story isn't over. ​

    it seems like you've already labeled Ren Ben as a psychopath and a mass-murderer.
    from his point of view, he's a hero and he's suffering.

    the ST has coded this kid as a mentally unstable victim of a predator.
    he's myopic, he's angry, he's fearful, and yes, he's very destructive.

    but he's not beyond hope. Luke even suggests as much at the end of TLJ.
    so i'm just going to go with that until we see how it turns out.
     
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