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SPECULATION IX, Legacy, and Reylo Ramble

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Use the Falchion, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    Kylo is a fictional character, there’s not enough material from the films to deduce whether or not he has that personality disorder. It could certainly be suspected, but there is also some evidence to discount it.

    Objectively, he is a mass murderer and a war criminal though. (Well, if there are laws of that nature in the SW universe) He would easily fit in the category I mentioned along with Eichman and co. From Osama’s point of view he was a hero as well, and Eichman just thought he was doing his job and following orders. It’s no excuse.

    The story isn’t over, we can certainly see some deux ex machina work through Snoke’s actions/mind control, and there’s the ever present dark side influence. It just seemed pretty clear that Kylo affirmed his nature when faced with the choice of leaving with Rey at the end of TLJ. There’s always redemptiom in the after-life like for Anakin...just not in life for him anymore.
     
  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    full stop.

    this is why we shouldn't worry about his "relationship" with Rey.

    period.
     
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  3. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    In that case, what are we doing discussing a fictional universe all together?

    As for the message, and why one should be critical. Movies do affect us, and will be able to change and influence perceptions. Much uncertainty in to what degree...but the fact above stands.

    https://op-talk.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/how-movies-can-change-our-minds/
     
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  4. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Although this video is about Twilight, I believe it fits very well into the Reylo discussion, as the main relationship in Twilight is often described as #problematic. It also is a good video on how we treat writers/directiors (yes, I'm thinking about Rian Johnson):



    Long story short - we need to chill. Also, we've learned nothing as a society.

    Yes, Reylo is #problematic but the amount of hatred people get for suggesting that relationship between Rey and Ben is not asexual and can become a thing is just silly. We're talking about a serialized fairytale here. Besides, Rian Johnson is perfectly aware that Kylo at his state at the end of TLJ is not emotionally stable and ready for any serious relationship and that's why Rey shuts him out both figuratively and literally.
     
    #104 Pawek_13, Jul 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Sorry for unliking your post @Shadowblade, :D but although i agree with your take on feminism when talking in general, you completely lose me when talking about Kylo, the audience reaction to his character and SW creators...

    As far as I can see all the films in the ST have been NOTHING but appropriate and sensitive in their treatment of how a nice girl should not be taken in by the lure of a not-so-nice boy. I just feel that you are looking for problems where there aren’t necessarily any. Adam Driver is an actor who is charismatic more than good looking and perhaps Lucasfilm decided to use him to portray an unlikely villain with an ambiguous character trajectory. In TLJ RJ exploited driver’s sex appeal, I think, not to pamper to the penchant some girls have for bad boys, but to introduce a cautionary tale about how physical attraction can be problematic for a young girl, even in a galaxy far far away... From where I am standing the filmmakers are simply creating and resolving conflict in a fairly thoughtful manner. All this worry about girls being attracted to bad boys and wanting to change them is not warranted yet in these films. Quite the opposite. Rey is nothing but an example of virtue.

    As for fan wishes, I see many men and women, not all of them Reylo fans, hoping for the redemption of Ben Solo in spite of his dreadful crimes. They hope for reform and compassion much more than for Rey’s and Kylo’s “space kiss”’ so many have condescended upon in these boards (an attitude I can only view as mysoginistic in a place where, supposedly, all posters are adults.)
     
    #105 Kylocity, Jul 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2018
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  6. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    He, interesting. Can't really relate or have an opinion though, Twilight is not exactly my cup of tea, haven't seen any.

    But, speaking of abusive fictional relationships, I guess these two top it :)

    joker.png
     
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  7. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    I can't imagine how Reylo would undermine Broomboy. But, come on, we all know that Broomboy is actually Kenobi's great grandson, so.

    To me, it has to be that way. I see only two ways of resolving the story in a meaningful way. Both involve love. It's the only thing that makes thematic sense. I think there's a better way than Reylo, but barring that, Reylo is the next viable alternative. There's nothing else that can facilitate Kylo's turn except good old love. It's the emotion that runs through the entire saga and to complete the saga without that being the means of resolution? No way that happens. What else is there? Someone debates Kylo in the philosophy of ethics until Kylo says "Yes, you're right, my system of ethics is faulty. I hereby renounce the dark side! Brilliant show, old chap!"

    I'm thinking it would be the opposite. Anakin turned to the dark side because of love for Padme, and Padme couldn't save him. If Kylo turned from the dark side because of love for Rey, and Rey could save him - isn't that the opposite? How is that not empowering? Do you doubt the wisdom of the bard?



    Or are you meaning that, "bad people" should never be the focus of love? That doesn't seem quite right.

    Ouch. Following that method of judgement, we might be left with a pretty empty planet.
     
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  8. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    From your standpoint that seems perfectly fine. I can get along with the "cautionary tale", and it does seem we agree that Rey made the "right choice". (Well, that seems to be the basic principles of her character, but let us not go into that) My faith in LF/the writers is at very low point, so I'm not so likely to give them the benefit of the doubt like you would. I have to disagree with Driver's looks, it's evident that he wouldn't have a huge problem picking up a gal in a bar. And, there would be no shirtless scene if he didn't have any goods to display that would cause a stir with female fans.

    I'm not hating on the shippers, I just think this ship going forwards would be very misguided, and LF would be to blame. I do not see that as a misogynistic view, quite the opposite. It would have been much better to develop Finn/Poe into something that could attract the female audience more. Nobody likes someone played for jokes, being made out to look like and idiot....or placed in a b-plot of the movie. Han Solo had a different allure, just enough of a scoundrel to entice without being a total dick.

    In order to save myself the trouble, you can check out the post below. Views closely align with mine. I have seen countless of them before...

    https://aminoapps.com/c/star-wars/page/blog/why-i-dont-ship-reylo/0NFk_uJwEvLNVokL7b3emQ84B3eg45

    PS! Like or do not like, that's nothing to be sorry about, just your expressed opinion that you should never excuse.
     
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    because as i have said repeatedly, as a fictional character we project onto him.
    you project a murder and potential wife-beater, i project a child in peril in who needs saving.
    i can defend my projection just as well as you can defend yours.

    yes, stories have real-world implications, but are your implications really more important than mine?
    you want to save women from making bad choices about bad men. i want to help stop men from being bad in the first place.

    a conundrum like Reylo is worth discussing, for raising these questions, using as a teaching tool for young people.
    but maybe leave the judgment and condemnation of others' taste in frivolous entertainment at the door.
    i've seen the worst parts of shipping and Reylo is not it (believe you me ~ i have seen horrors). : o O
    so maybe let people enjoy what they want. let them choose.

    lastly, Star Wars has no obligation to either side of the argument.
    and for every person who weighs in saying it should, there's another voice saying "keep your social justice mitts off my space fantasy".
    do we really need to police how other people engage with art? God i hope not.
     
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  10. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    Better than a planet destroyed utterly...or should we say 9?
     
  11. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Here's my two cents, if Vader can be redeemed why not Ben? What's the difference? Vader was designed to be the optimy of all evil, after all. Yet, Obi-Wan and Yoda forgave him. Even though he nearly wiped out their religion. No doubt Vader/Anakin did way worse things then Ben/Kylo ever did.
     
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  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Oh no, I know that Adam Driver is attractive. My point is that he was selected for the role, I suspect, because of his acting style and charisma more than his looks. Kylo Ren as a character needs to be so much more than good looking.

    I don’t know if Lucasfilm will offer an approximation of a Reylo ending, but no matter what they come up with, I’m sure they will do it with taste and with an eye to giving a wholesome message to the young. After all, KK and JJ seem perfectly in sync with modern social sensitivities. I would be very surprised if they come up with something unsavoury.
     
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  13. VOODOO

    VOODOO Rebel General

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    The whole “Reylo” concept is just stupid. Why would Rey in any way be attracted to a mass murderer?
     
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  14. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    The main problem I see here is that retributive justice can sound a lot like revenge and/or torture - so close to that dark-side mentality of bringing peace through subjugation.

    In situations like this I like to ask myself what would Jedi do? :D

    Obiwan as Jesus.png
    I think it's safe to assume psychopaths aren't burdened with a conscience that causes the pain and conflict we see in Kylo.

    Curiously we know those famous psychopaths that rose to powerful heights in the 20th century did so by being charismatic and affable – traits the writers have made clear that Kylo does not currently possess/utilize!
    It's a good question.
    I'm not big on the speculation game but I wonder if there is some information that could come to light that somehow completely calls into question his world-view and trajectory?
     
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  15. Dawn

    Dawn Rebel General

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    Lack of trust in women? That's the explanation you found? Is that a fact or an assumption that best fits a well established narrative whose sole purpose is to take responsibility away from women and throw it on everyone else?

    What kind of argument is this? The world is not just imperfect, it's pure hell for many people and awful at best for MOST people. Which is exactly why we shouldn't look for problems where there aren't any. But I'm wasting my figurative breath at this point.
     
  16. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Sure, anything is possible. But if we were the writers, I'd be saying, the information flow in this series moves toward one of two specific outcomes. Any other outcome is going to be movement against the flow of what's already there. And I think it's going to be unsatisfactory to the direction of the story's movement. We could just have the story end with Kylo not being redeemed, and being blown up on the Death Star 4.0. But that's not where the story is wanting to move.

    One of those outcomes is Reylo. The other I'll just leave a mystery, but both outcomes involve love being the fulcrum of movement. It's been the fulcrum of movement in both trilogies so far, and to drop that theme now would be; well, I'd be thumbing it down in the writers room. Wholly artifical and unsatisfactory. By artificial I'm meaning, not proceeding in the movement already being directed by the story itself.

    We already have that "connection" between Kylo and Rey in place. Kylo is already Anakin 2.0. A resolution which is an involution of the PT (Anakin turns to the dark side because of love, Padme can't save him, becomes the victim -> "Anakin" turns to the light side because of love, "Padme" can save him, becomes the hero) makes perfect thematic sense as an output to the PT input. But "Kylo reasons his way back to the light side", is a story, but it doesn't follow. It would be like saying, "One, two, four" no, not even that, it would be like saying "One, two, cat."

    It's true that Kylo hasn't treated Rey the way she deserves, but hey that's pretty much the case with every guy I've ever met so, par for the course. Not to mention that at this point they've been enemy combatants in a war. But to think that love can't spring in such a situation? That's what Beauty and the Beast is all about (cough Disney cough). Of course they start off as enemy combatants. But then something happens along the way that changes everything. It's a tale as old as time. And if there's anything Star Wars as a story wants to be, it's timeless.
     
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  17. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I thought we were not supposed to have this discussion here, thence the shorthand I used in my post, but now that you mention it, yes, it is a well known fact that there are less trust in women in the privileged part of the world when money is involved. It’s a well documented fact. There are many Ted talks from women who work in the finance world who explain this occurrence much better than I ever could. Numbers do not lie.

    When certain powers are still not readily available for women, when money is not given to women to create wealth or opportunity for others we need to ask ourselves why, and research where the problem truly lies. It is said by people working in this sector that financial deals are made in golf courses, a male dominated environment, and that seniors in the finance world are more likely to mentor young men rather than young women. Trust is a huge factor when money is being invested and those who do the investing want a safe bet. They don’t want to have to deal with maternity leaves or women having their children as their main responsibility.

    If I said that the world is imperfect, I was not talking about the blatant gender injustices across the globe, but simply about the workings of institutions and decision makers in the most privileged parts of the world. I personally would wish that in the west governments and companies made a conscious effort to share business and family responsibilities across the genders instead of continuing reinforcing the same tired social stereotypes.

    I believe that if equality was encouraged in the very top, it would inevitably sip to the very bottom eventually... or at least that is my hope.
     
    #117 Kylocity, Jul 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  18. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Why would Padme still be attracted to guy who just wiped out a village?:rolleyes: Just so we're clear Rey rejected him twice: once in the throne room and her closing the door on him at the end. It's not like they were rolling around in the grass after the throne room scene.
     
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  19. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    We will sure project and interpret the characters differently. That aside, I’m not projecting that he is a murderer. That’s just factual. Objectively he has done a lot worse to Rey then to simply beat her up. He has kidnapped, mind-raped, hurt and killed her friends, and tried to kill her when she rejected him. Telling her she is nothing, and has no place in the world except as his partner. These are just things the character had done in the movies. Every villain, every criminal, every bad act comes with an excuse. In the end, we can see them as explanations, and sometimes see them as true mitigating factors. In the end though, when your atrocitities reach a certain level though, there are just consequences to be had regardless.

    There might be worse ships out there, but I probably would not like them more than this one. And, I will lay the blame squarely at LF if they decide to out it to fruition. They have no respinsubily per se, but I am sure it will turn off more fans, (and I believe it will be the majority of females) should we see the ship fulfilled.

    My guess is that he will die, LF seeing the need, (just as they will have force ghost luke trying to save IX...) open question of whether he has some redemption or not.
     
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  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i have never argued against the fact that Ren is destructive; he killed Lor San Tekka in cold blood. he killed his father.
    as for what he's done to Rey? again, he's done nothing to her in context of a "relationship".
    he yelled at her out of frustration in a charged moment when neither were thinking very clearly.
    later he made empty threats. big whoop.

    i know there are women who don't like this ship. i can certainly appreciate that. but it's women who have made this ship popular. it's not men making all that art and writing all those fanfictions. and again, leave them to it. who cares if it's because they think Adam Driver is hot or because they like the "bad boy" trope, or they just see Star Wars as a retelling of the Beauty and the Beast fairy tale. this ship is contingent on Ren being good. you may think his past "badness" cancels out his right to happiness, but i don't ascribe to this kind of medieval sackcloth and ashes mentality.

    at the end of the day more love in the world is a better thing. hope is a better thing. the risk that it might lead to hurt sometimes is just life. cynicism is destroying our ability to form and maintain deep and meaningful relationships. the real problem is parents who don't guide their children to make smart choices and damaged men who take out their pain on women. not women who want to love and be loved.
     
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